Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I don't think it is a good idea to release an unfinished game, or even only a short scenario. I even think it is the worst of the worst ideas.

Some people won't know it is a non finished game, and this will ruin its reputation for when it is really finished.
I hope Matrix never agrees to do that.

MWiF should stay unpublished until it is finished.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Warspite1

I`m surprised by some of these responses - although as an "outsider looking in" maybe I am missing something and the game is further ahead in its schedule than I believe to be the case.

Previous queries and responses from Steve have confirmed that this idea would be to sell a clearly defined Gamma test game - not the finished product - and so unlike EIA for example, no one could buy the product without that caveat. It should be clear to a buyer that they purchase at their risk but that in return for continued feedback on errors/problems, Matrix will support via continuous patches and updates.

Learning from the EIA I think there are three key things that need to be addressed (by the way, none of the points below is designed in any way to disparage the efforts of Steve or the playtesters to date but rightly or wrongly, reflect my thoughts - and doubts - on the ability to get this game out in 2009, if the route decided upon is to continue on the current course). The game requires:

1. A stable, user friendly basic system where each phase does what it is supposed to do e.g. no units "disappearing" and other such bugs that make the game unplayable.
2. An at least sensible AI that presents something of a challenge - although in the first instance will be little more than a tool for learning to play the game.
3. An ability to play by Internet, PBEM or whatever.

For such a complex game, No.1 alone is frightening in its complexity and needs to be thoroughly playtested to ensure robustness - this cannot happen without serious hours being devoted to playtesting the millions of possibilities in unit set up, battles and the political events. Read the EIA forum if you doubt what can go wrong.

For the second point to be achievable, this too will take huge effort once No.1 is working properly and in my view will take the input of experienced players to identify what can/should be done given the myriad of possibilities that exist. Peter has done sterling work on the country set ups but as the old military maxim states "no plan survives contact with the enemy" and ensuring that the AI gives a decent account of itself through a whole game surely can only be developed over time?

The third point I know less about but is dependent anyway on no.1.

As I said in previous posts, I am a huge supporter of this game and Steve`s efforts to bring the final product to fruition. I hope the above is treated as simply my 2 cents based on thoughts and observations - not as some huge downer on what Matrix, Steve and the betatesters are striving to achieve. I am a betatester myself and have perhaps not devoted the time I originally hoped to the job a) because of work and family commitments and b) the time taken up with the unit write ups (rest assured you will know all you ever wanted on the RN and Commonwealth land units during WWII!!) - which are taking up much of my spare time at present - rather than de-bugging the game.

Whatever the chosen path - I will still support Steve and Matrix in getting this fine game finished.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GordianKnot
The fear of it getting a 'bad reputation' is unfounded. It assumes purchasers of a highly complex, state of the art, grand strategy game are complete morons who can't read the disclaimer staring them in the face.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaguar

However, I would challenge that the forum group is not the best choice for beta-testers. Most everyone in the forum has a good understanding of WiF and therefore has preconceived ideas of how the game should work. So, if the game works along those lines, they will all think it is a good product. But, if you give the game to an few hundred inexperienced WiF players, you are likely to get an entirely different outcome.

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While I laude Steve's and everyone else's effort in attempting to produce an high quality computer representaton of WiF, I an unconvinced that it is possible to do so. The complexities of the game and the nearly limitless trees and branches that actions can follow will make any meaningful AI impossible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: GordianKnot
The fear of it getting a 'bad reputation' is unfounded. It assumes purchasers of a highly complex, state of the art, grand strategy game are complete morons who can't read the disclaimer staring them in the face.

You're wrong.

There will be people in non english speaking countries that will think that MWiF is finaly out, and there will be reviews in magazines, bad reviews, and the buyers will turn away thinking it is a new EiA half finished game published. No one will understand this gamma thing, games are either finished and published or not finished and not published. If it is published, it will mean it is finished, whatever disclaimer you write anywhere. Don't forget also that the people who will buy this game are in a vast majority not reading these forums, so they won't be aware of the whys and whens of why this was decided, and will assume the game is a finalized game.

I'm sure there will be reviews in France, and I'm 100% sure that it will be written in the review that this is a gamma version, but here in France it means nothing, noone will understand what a gamma version is, so people will think it is a kind of near release version. I've read reviews about games that were reviewed in near release version that assassinated the game notwhistanding any disclaimer.

You'd be surprised as how numerous the European WiF players are, so risking to confuse them is the least thing Matrix should do, especially after having done what they did to EiA. People are highly dubious about MWiF, so ANYTHING that gives them fuel for their worry is bad, because they spread their worries quicker than you spread your good word. You need 100 good word speakers for each bad word speaker, and it will be the reverse if you release that game unfinished.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GordianKnot
What if we just called it a 'paid beta' or a 'funded beta'? No one knows WTH a 'gamma' version is anyway. Everyone understands the term beta. So paid or funded beta should be clear to anyone. IMHO.

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ORIGINAL: Gravit

If Matrix needs more playtesters then by all means put out a playtest recruitment thread and charge everyone the cost of the game to playtest and allow them to download the files privately.  If more playtesters are needed and there are folks willing to pay to playtest then great, work out a side deal and let them in. I was suckered into EIA by purchasing it before I dove through all the threads thinking that neither ADB nor Matrix would ever steer me wrong.  I was wrong and remain quite disappointed in ADB for allowing this to occur.

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ORIGINAL: brian brian

yeah, go with the regular NDA the regular beta-testers already sign up for. I am not a fan at all of the NDA for the paper game, and not even all that much for the computer game, since I have never understood the point of it beyond Harry wants it that way. It's not like we are testing a new hydrogen-cold-fusion-free-energy-car-of-the-future or something, or there is someone out there hovering on the horizon trying to steal the bounce combat system for their WWII wargame. But I'm not trying to open that issue, it is how it is. I would buy and sign immediately if I could. I think I could play through about half of one game this winter, not sure if I would be a huge help finding bugs, but I would love to help any way I could.

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That is, of course if they can read their own language

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
I'm torn.  On the one hand I want to play it (assuming its playable).  And it might (might) hasten its arrival if it is released in a semi-finished state.  Games have been released in the past (Star Wars Galaxies?) in a semi-finished state and done OK in the long run.  I'd buy it, even if it was buggy, so long as it was at least vaguely playable.  If it was PBEM only I'd buy it.