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RE: Tidbit - 1/9/2009 6:21:53 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

You have NO idea...



And this is one of the reasons I will continue to play using one day turns.(Small baby steps till I get off the training wheels again).


You got off the training wheels??!!



But I still gotta stay on the sidewalk....

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Post #: 301
RE: Tidbit - 1/9/2009 6:24:08 PM   
Mike Solli


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Created by the amazing Dixie

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Post #: 302
Yippie - 1/11/2009 3:01:19 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		One of the interesting new class types in AE is the YP. The official description of this type is “District Patrol Craft” but they are commonly referred to as Yard Patrol Boats.

They, and several other of the new types, are specifically intended for local defensive patrol. The AI will make extensive use of these little ships and you will find that moving a Task Force into an enemy controlled base hex might encounter some. If so, they will attack your subs and engage your surface ships. You’ll probably be able to push right through them, but you will be detected and use up ammo, movement points, and ops. British/Commonwealth and Japanese navies have similar ships under their own designations (something for a later post).

Historically there were large numbers of YPs: harbor craft, requisitioned yachts, ex Coast Guard anti-rum-runner types of three sizes (65 foot, 75 foot, 100 foot), requisitioned fishing boats (deep sea capable), a class of Tuna Boat types specifically built to Navy specs (YP-618 class), and the ever-popular “others” (even including some ex PTs).

After some considerable debate, we have decided to limit the YPs in AE to the requisitioned Fishing Boat type. Historically these were heavily used in Alaskan waters and in the Hawaiian chain. We did not include the similar YP-618 class as they commissioned very late in the war.

For the player, the best use of these ships is in small ASW TFs at major ports or at coastal locations/choke points where the enemy has been sending his subs. Also for escort of barge or other short ranged or coastal traffic. The AI will distribute them to ports and form ASW patrols.

It is quite difficult to find data on these vessels. Most only made it into the history when they were lost. Some (like YP 16/17) not even then. There is good data on some special built classes.

Coast Guard 75 foot patrol boats
The famous “6-bitters” built in large numbers during Prohibition. Designed for anti-rum runner duties, they had good speed, endurance, and sea keeping abilities. They could easily operate 20 miles out to sea. Two Hundred and three were built for the Coast Guard during the 1920s, with about 36 still in USCG service during World War II. Many more were transferred to the Navy as YPs (YP 5-17, 19-40, 45-40, 52, 54-55, 59, 60, and 67). YP-16 and YP-17 were at Guam on December 7th, 1941 and were both lost – one being salved and used by the Japanese.

Coast Guard 100 foot patrol boats
Large but slower steel hulled craft,. These were the predecessors to the 125 Foot “Active” class cutters (in stock WITP as PC and in AE as SC). Most were transferred to the Navy as YPs (41-42, 50, 56, 61-64, 69).

Coast Guard 65 foot patrol boats
Harbor day boats in USCG service, a few went into the Navy for the same duties. YP 30, 44, 51, 53, 65. Many similar craft were requisitioned from civilian sources.

Tuna Boats
Many requisitioned craft are in the AE OOB, especially those that served in Alaskan waters. They were so useful that YP 618-646 were built by the Navy to supplement their numbers.

Sector Patrol Boats
Before the YP designation was adopted, craft performing this function were called Sector Patrol boats and were requisitioned civilian craft. Many of these were still in service when the YP designation was created and were converted to YP numbers. This number conversion resulted in some fairly high hull numbered boats that were long out of service by World War II.

Warship conversions
A number of coastal warships that originally held other designations were re designated as YP. Some of these were themselves requisitioned ships that had been classified as PYc (and others). Also a few PC, SC, minesweepers and even PT.

The rest were ex-civilian craft of all types – harbor boats to substantial yachts.

Not Navy YPs, but the Coast Guard 400 series boats were all attached to Pacific Coast Guard districts during the war. These were faster but shorter ranged boats that had been specifically built to intercept run runners coming from Canada to New England ports. Endurance was not as important in this area and a “feature war” with smugglers had produced these 24 knot craft.
















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< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 1/11/2009 3:03:20 AM >

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Post #: 303
RE: Yippie - 1/11/2009 6:34:39 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Cool



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Post #: 304
RE: Yippie - 1/11/2009 6:49:18 AM   
TOMLABEL


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From: Alabama - ROLL TIDE!!!!!
Status: offline 		Very, very good info, Don!

Thank you!

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Post #: 305
RE: Yippie - 1/11/2009 9:49:07 AM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
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From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		I am curious if HMS Li Wo (Cpt. Wilkinson T.) will be in AE .

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Post #: 306
RE: Yippie - 1/11/2009 3:20:46 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

I am curious if HMS Li Wo (Cpt. Wilkinson T.) will be in AE .


I don't think so. Those various auxiliary patrol and minesweeping ships at Singapore are very interesting, especially the ex-Straits Steamship ones. But a limit has to be placed somewhere...



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Post #: 307
MLs and HDMLs - 1/11/2009 3:24:52 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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The British ships that most closely resemble the US Navy’s YPs were the Fairmile B Motor Launches and Harbour Defense Motor Launches. Both of these types are included in AE, with the same usage as YPs. The MLs however, are set for conversion to MGBs later in the war – a role in which they were heavily used in the Arakan.

Large numbers of Fairmile B and HDMLs were under construction in the Far East at the start of the war in the Pacific. Many units at Hong Kong, Singapore, and Rangoon would be lost before completion. At least, historically. In any given AE game, one never knows.

In AE, we included only a sampling of the two types. Being small, they existed in large numbers – most of which had little impact. Only those Hong Kong and Singapore units nearing completion are included as under construction. Two units just completing at Singapore are available on the first day. Two others at Hong Kong and some of an additional dozen at Singapore might be completed if the bases hang on long enough. If not, you will see them in the Sunk Ships list as Destroyed while building. Many others have been omitted as there was little reasonable chance of their completion.

A few additional MLs were built in India during the war. Construction proceeded slowly as some components had to come from Britain and were in short supply. Two flotillas of British Boats were built in South Africa, manned by South Africans, and deployed to the Arakan. All these have been included. Large numbers of additional boats were built for or delivered to the Australian (25), New Zealand (12) and Canadian (14 on West Coast) navies but have not been included. The Australian and New Zealand boats were a close call as they served in the Solomons and New Guinea – but mostly later in the war when major action had moved on.

We have included only a few of the HDMLs, but they are historically very significant. Like the MLs, HDMLs were under construction at many Far East ports. Four just or nearly completed at Singapore have been included. Also the five famous boats of the Burma RNVR, already complete at Rangoon. The only non-Fairmile HDML were the four named Thornycroft boats of the Malayan RNVR, based at Georgetown. All of these units were active during the initial campaigns and many survived to withdraw to India. The actions of a few motor launches and other small ships on the Malayan coast are justly famous.

Others came from Britain as deck cargo, or were built in India. They served in the Indian (about 16), Australian (28), and New Zealand (16) navies, but mostly in rear areas. These have not been included.

Remember, ML is Motor Launch in AE. Mine layers are CM or CMc.








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(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 308
RE: MLs and HDMLs - 1/11/2009 4:18:21 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Sounds great, Don! It sounds like you've made reasonable decisions on what to include and what not.

Are these small ships and boats worth any victory points? 1 each, perhaps? I'd be curious to see the "ship details" screen of one or more, but that may be a request too far...

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Post #: 309
RE: MLs and HDMLs - 1/11/2009 4:25:26 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Sounds great, Don! It sounds like you've made reasonable decisions on what to include and what not.

Are these small ships and boats worth any victory points? 1 each, perhaps? I'd be curious to see the "ship details" screen of one or more, but that may be a request too far...


Everything has some victory value. The minimum is one point. We have a new victory point calculation (I think there's a post somewhere) which includes ship type, size, and capacity.



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Post #: 310
RE: MLs and HDMLs - 1/11/2009 4:31:02 PM   
IndyShark


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Joined: 7/7/2002
From: Indianapolis
Status: offline 		Will the Japanese get any warships they captured from the Allies in their OOB? I know they sunk a US Destroyer and salvaged her early in the war. She was later used as an escort.

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Post #: 311
RE: Yippie - 1/11/2009 4:32:00 PM   
rhohltjr


Posts: 536
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From: When I play pacific wargames, I expect smarter AI.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

One of the interesting new class types in AE is the YP. The official description of this type is “District Patrol Craft” but they are commonly referred to as Yard Patrol Boats.

They, and several other of the new types, are specifically intended for local defensive patrol. The AI will make extensive use of these little ships .....

Cool. Great. Don, love to read about the AI doing more!!! Will we get new mission(s) for these new coastal fishing boat types as well ...{patrol_harbor, patrol_area, catch_fish(sit in boat and )}???



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Amphibious Assault at Kota Bharu
TF 85 troops securing a beachhead at Kota Bharu, 51,75
whew! I still feel better.

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 312
RE: MLs and HDMLs - 1/11/2009 4:38:23 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IndyShark

Will the Japanese get any warships they captured from the Allies in their OOB? I know they sunk a US Destroyer and salvaged her early in the war. She was later used as an escort.


No. We did not put captured ships into the OOB as they may not be captured in any given game. Three destroyers (Stewart, Thracian, Banckert), lots of small craft and merchants, but not included.



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Post #: 313
RE: Yippie - 1/11/2009 4:40:54 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhohltjr

Will we get new mission(s) for these new coastal fishing boat types as well ...{patrol_harbor, patrol_area, catch_fish(sit in boat and )}???




There is no new mission for local ASW patrol. It is just a "regular" ASW TF, but the AI will utilize it "specially" for local patrol purposes.

We did include a new mission for local minesweeping and, in retrospect, I wish we had done a local patrol as well. Too late now, and we can get by quite well without it.




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Post #: 314
Cha and T23 - 1/11/2009 4:42:11 PM   
Don Bowen


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The Japanese small craft equivalent of YP are the small Auxiliary Submarine Chasers and the Motor Launch variation of the small, slow “torpedo boats” of the T23 type.

The No. 1 Type Auxiliary Submarine Chaser, Cha-1 class (also sometimes known as Special Type Submarine Chaser or STS) was under construction from 1941 until the end of the war. Two hundred units were ordered, with some still incomplete at war’s end. They were small vessels built by yards that had experience building fishing boats. They had wooden hulls, an 11-knot speed, and generally resembled fishing boats the world over. Lightly armed, they carried only a couple of 13mm MGs and depth charges. During the war they were utilized, and lost, in every region under Japanese control

There is some vagueness in reference work as to the earliest commissioning date for units of this class, but we have made the class available at the start of the war. Actual availability may be as much as 18 months later, but these ships stand in for various requisitioned fishing vessels in the OOB, so a little generalization has been made. The AE OOB includes 108 of them, with two dozen available on the first day. The rest dribble in over the entire course of the war.

Due to a shortage of proper engines, the T23 Type Motor Torpedo Boats were very slow. They were converted into gun boats and small escorts. The AE OOB includes all three variations, with the small escort being classed as Motor Launch. Players can convert between the types. The ML variation is used in Local ASW Patrols by the AI and can be so used by players. For the convenience of the AI, these boats arrive in Motor Launch configuration.










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Post #: 315
RE: Cha and T23 - 1/11/2009 5:10:42 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		To put some additional perspective on what Don is saying, the Japanese had roughly 8000 motor, ocean going fishing vessels in 1940. Some of these were and any of them could have been, requisitioned for naval use. Of course this would have reduced the ability of the fishing fleet to bring home the catch, and had negative impact on the people of Japan. Also, the patrol classes Don is mentioning were designed and built with the idea of them being converted to fishing vessels after the war. So maintining this 2-way street was a part of the purposeful capability of these vessels. "I am a very limited use war vessel one day" - and - "I am a regular fishing vessel another day".



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RE: Cha and T23 - 1/11/2009 9:02:45 PM   
brisd


Posts: 614
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From: San Diego, CA
Status: offline 		Great to see the progress on this update to a great game.  Thanks for sharing the 'chrome' esp. and for you all your long hard work on this project. 

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RE: Cha and T23 - 1/11/2009 11:26:28 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brisd
Great to see the progress on this update to a great game.  Thanks for sharing the 'chrome' esp. and for you all your long hard work on this project. 

It's not 'chrome', my friend. Don is very careful about giving operational hints along with the descriptive stuff. Read his post vewy, vewy cafuwy.

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RE: Cha and T23 - 1/12/2009 12:16:52 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		We all know Doolittle had to launch early when they encountered the outer ring of fishing trawlers. Will this ring of small boats be represented in any way?

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Post #: 319
RE: Cha and T23 - 1/12/2009 2:00:09 PM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

We all know Doolittle had to launch early when they encountered the outer ring of fishing trawlers. Will this ring of small boats be represented in any way?


The AI will create TFs with these small craft in the same hex as their home base for the purpose of defending that base. The player may do the same.

Patrols further away can be created by the player using any ships with sufficient endurance. That is not directly related to the same-hex local patrols.



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Post #: 320
RE: Cha and T23 - 1/12/2009 6:25:37 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

We all know Doolittle had to launch early when they encountered the outer ring of fishing trawlers. Will this ring of small boats be represented in any way?


The AI will create TFs with these small craft in the same hex as their home base for the purpose of defending that base. The player may do the same.

Patrols further away can be created by the player using any ships with sufficient endurance. That is not directly related to the same-hex local patrols.






Thank you..

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RE: Cha and T23 - 1/12/2009 7:54:19 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
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From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Don, do you have a photo of the Cha 1 class? Couldn't find one on the Internet. Just curious what she looks like!

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RE: Cha and T23 - 1/12/2009 8:11:49 PM   
helldiver


Posts: 86
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: SRA
Status: offline 		Greetings.

Thanks to the development team for keeping and feeding our interest in the new incarnation. I have read with interest the above posts on the new YP and ASW craft. I am particularly interested in playing the ASW portion of the game from the Japanese side. I was not able to extract from Posts # 315 and 316 the answers to the following:
1. Are the new ML and ASC (?) types on the Japanese side in addition to the present WITP ASW types, like MSW, PC, PG? Or is it a case of some redesignated (like the Allied side?) Can you say a bit more to clarify this?
-OR-
2. Could we have a brief list and few word description of all of the Japanese types of light craft (below DDs) in AE?

Regards,
Helldiver

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 323
RE: Cha and T23 - 1/12/2009 8:17:29 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Don, do you have a photo of the Cha 1 class? Couldn't find one on the Internet. Just curious what she looks like!


We have a drawing in an old ONI document. The icon is in the post above. May be more on the web. Try STS as well as Cha-1 in the search.




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Post #: 324
RE: Cha and T23 - 1/12/2009 8:22:10 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Helldiver

Greetings.

Thanks to the development team for keeping and feeding our interest in the new incarnation. I have read with interest the above posts on the new YP and ASW craft. I am particularly interested in playing the ASW portion of the game from the Japanese side. I was not able to extract from Posts # 315 and 316 the answers to the following:
1. Are the new ML and ASC (?) types on the Japanese side in addition to the present WITP ASW types, like MSW, PC, PG? Or is it a case of some redesignated (like the Allied side?) Can you say a bit more to clarify this?
-OR-
2. Could we have a brief list and few word description of all of the Japanese types of light craft (below DDs) in AE?

Regards,
Helldiver



http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1637347&mpage=14&key=

about mid page. Few changes, and corrections, nothing major.

(in reply to helldiver)
Post #: 325
RE: Cha and T23 - 1/12/2009 9:07:36 PM   
helldiver


Posts: 86
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: SRA
Status: offline 		Yes!

Thanks, Don. I was away from the computer that week and missed that one... I'll work on my search strategies....

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 326
RE: Cha and T23 - 1/12/2009 9:24:52 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Can't find pictures, but this site seems to have detail on Commission dates and losses for the class:

http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?language=E&period=&idtrida=1106

Who knows where that came from, but hopefully it gives with what you have.

Interesting addition!

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Post #: 327
RE: Cha and T23 - 1/12/2009 9:47:00 PM   
1275psi

 

Posts: 7979
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Status: offline 		Im very worried about these small patrol craft

At the moment if an allied player sees a Japanese task force lining up for an attack the easiest theing to do is create a heap of 1 boat, or 2 boat PT TFs.
The Japs come in -and after encountering a dozen TFs -in a row -all their op points are used up - and the mission is defeated.

Whats to stop me doing the same now with even more small boats available!

Naval bombardments are dead in the water -which also means BBs now have next to no use - (can't get a surface action intercept -can't bombard no ops points left) which did not reflect real life at all

I hope Im wrong - please tell me that BBs are not going to expend effort now against fishing boats!

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 328
RE: Cha and T23 - 1/12/2009 10:26:16 PM   
mikemike

 

Posts: 501
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: a maze of twisty little passages, all different
Status: offline 		I've posted a line drawing of the Cha in this forum in 2007:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1390255&mpage=1&key=&#

It's post 16 in that thread, about half the way down the page.

< Message edited by mikemike -- 1/12/2009 10:32:11 PM >

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Post #: 329
RE: Cha and T23 - 1/12/2009 11:14:42 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

Im very worried about these small patrol craft

At the moment if an allied player sees a Japanese task force lining up for an attack the easiest theing to do is create a heap of 1 boat, or 2 boat PT TFs.
The Japs come in -and after encountering a dozen TFs -in a row -all their op points are used up - and the mission is defeated.

Whats to stop me doing the same now with even more small boats available!

Naval bombardments are dead in the water -which also means BBs now have next to no use - (can't get a surface action intercept -can't bombard no ops points left) which did not reflect real life at all

I hope Im wrong - please tell me that BBs are not going to expend effort now against fishing boats!



You are mostly wrong. However, if you want to search features to find ways to cheat, t'ain't much can be done.



(in reply to 1275psi)
Post #: 330
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