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RE: Africa Bitmaps - 2/29/2008 11:21:36 PM

Froonp

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Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Uh-oh, don't get Patrice started or he might start naming every oasis in Africa.

Hey, I already named a few, amongst which the Kufra Oasis, that the Free French soldiers led by Leclerc and with the help of the LRDG took out from the Italians in March 1941. This was the first of a long serie of combats and victories that allowed us to have our word at the end of WWII.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 121

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 3/1/2008 12:22:23 AM

Norman42

Posts: 244
Joined: 2/9/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Look, I'm not at all planning on changing this area, because it is on the Europe Map

Fair enough, but I do hope the discussion is open if ever the Euro Map does change.

quote:

But I made a draft drawing to try to show what you did put into words. I vastly prefer a crude draft than a long explanation.
Also, I added other railways that you did not describe, but that are present on maps of the time.

Excellent work. How you drew it is a pretty accurate map of that area (with the addition of Constantine as a city as you mentioned previously).

I hope someday that layout becomes the WiF standard.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 122

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/4/2009 8:00:34 PM

fiveof6

Posts: 23
Joined: 9/3/2007
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Kenya

The two hexes on the SW side of Lake Rudolf should be desert (used to live there).

Nairobi and one hex east is generally flat terrain, so forest would be more appropriate (beautiful evergreens trees). Nairobi has much more gradual terrain dropping into the Rift Valley to the west and toward the coast to the east.

The Alpine hex in southern Kenya should be removed. While Mount Kilimanjaro is a high feature, there is no reason a unit would need to go directly over the top. Within the span of a hexside, the effects of normal mountain terrain would be all that's needed. If the Alpine is to be kept, it should be moved one hexside west to coincide with the actual feature (It is in 1939 Tanganyika, an earlier gift to the Kaiser from the Queen).

The two mountain hexes (Mombasa and 1 SW) should be moved one hex west. There is about 50 miles of coastal plains before hills begin to rise.

Kevin

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 123

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/4/2009 10:00:10 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fiveof6

Kenya

The two hexes on the SW side of Lake Rudolf should be desert (used to live there).

Nairobi and one hex east is generally flat terrain, so forest would be more appropriate (beautiful evergreens trees). Nairobi has much more gradual terrain dropping into the Rift Valley to the west and toward the coast to the east.

The Alpine hex in southern Kenya should be removed. While Mount Kilimanjaro is a high feature, there is no reason a unit would need to go directly over the top. Within the span of a hexside, the effects of normal mountain terrain would be all that's needed. If the Alpine is to be kept, it should be moved one hexside west to coincide with the actual feature (It is in 1939 Tanganyika, an earlier gift to the Kaiser from the Queen).

The two mountain hexes (Mombasa and 1 SW) should be moved one hex west. There is about 50 miles of coastal plains before hills begin to rise.

Kevin

Same here, I' could use a sketch map based on this screenshot.
Also, coastal hexes' terrain are the most difficult to change, so they are the ones where I'm the most reluctant to have changes done.

Other opinions from other peoples ?

Attachment (1)

(in reply to fiveof6)

Post #: 124

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/4/2009 10:02:40 PM

Froonp

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Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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Here is the relevant WiF FE paper map.
Please note that they had put a lot more mountain in Kenya than on the MWiF map.
Please note too that this map seems to support your claim for clear coastal hexes around Mombasa.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 125

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/12/2009 2:17:01 AM

fiveof6

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Kevin

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 126

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/12/2009 4:57:39 AM

Grapeshot Bob

Posts: 642
Joined: 12/16/2007
From: Canada
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This might help:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=mombasa&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

It doesn't look like Mombassa is in mountains. Interestingly, it is actually on an island in a bay.

Mark

(in reply to fiveof6)

Post #: 127

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/12/2009 2:02:40 PM

iamspamus

Posts: 433
Joined: 11/16/2006
From: Cambridge, UK
Status: offline

Yep, the Portugues tended to put their settlements on islands or isthmuses. Mombasa is where Fort Jesus was located. I've always wanted to go there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grapeshot Bob

This might help:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=mombasa&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

It doesn't look like Mombassa is in mountains. Interestingly, it is actually on an island in a bay.

Mark

(in reply to Grapeshot Bob)

Post #: 128

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/12/2009 9:31:01 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fiveof6

Kevin

Thanks for this Kevin.
I think I will change the northern hexes to desert, and the Alpine hexside, but I won't change the rest, because :
- I prefer changes to be kept to a minimum, because I think that the original map designer had done his homework, and the map is quite well researched already.
- The terrain near Mombasa may be flat, but 5 miles from the coast it becomes rought, and I think that it is what the map want to show. I would remove the mountains totaly, but would not put them so far from the coast.
- The terrain around Nairobi looks quite rought too, so I think that it is OK to stay as mountains.

Look at this map.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to fiveof6)

Post #: 129

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/13/2009 1:00:21 AM

Orm

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Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: fiveof6

Kevin

Thanks for this Kevin.
I think I will change the northern hexes to desert, and the Alpine hexside, but I won't change the rest, because :
- I prefer changes to be kept to a minimum, because I think that the original map designer had done his homework, and the map is quite well researched already.
- The terrain near Mombasa may be flat, but 5 miles from the coast it becomes rought, and I think that it is what the map want to show. I would remove the mountains totaly, but would not put them so far from the coast.
- The terrain around Nairobi looks quite rought too, so I think that it is OK to stay as mountains.

Look at this map.

I appreciate that you do not make map changes lighlty since you do not know the intent of the original creator. I do however think that you might be able to do better research than the earlier mapcreators had (with alot more facts and maps and google earth on internet).

But I feel the need to say that in an hex with multiple types of terrain I think it is prefered if the terrain that gets reflected in the hex is the same as where most of the fighting would have taken place. If there is a city and a port in a hex the fighting would most likely be around that area. It feels a bit wrong to me when I look at your map to give mountain defence bonus against a naval invasion on Mombasa.

I will take this opportunity to give you credit for your awesome research and work in creating awesome maps.

-Orm

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 130

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/13/2009 5:13:54 AM

Grapeshot Bob

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Joined: 12/16/2007
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm
I appreciate that you do not make map changes lighlty since you do not know the intent of the original creator. I do however think that you might be able to do better research than the earlier mapcreators had (with alot more facts and maps and google earth on internet).

I strongly agree with this statement. Use all the resources you have to make the most accurate maps you can.

Is the terrain better described as "hilly" or "mountainous". Perhaps you need to change the hex to something between plain and mountain? Is there a "hill" terrain type?

Mark

< Message edited by Grapeshot Bob -- 1/13/2009 5:20:27 AM >

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 131

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/13/2009 2:39:07 PM

composer99

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From: Ottawa, Canada
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Not in regular WiF (and hence not in MWiF 1); basically if a hex's normal terrain, however hilly, does not substantially interfere with military operations throughout its land area, it gets to be clear (or forest, or desert). If it does pose serious obstacles to military operations, it gets to be mountain.

I believe an in-between terrain type might get used in MWiF 2 ('highlands' or 'rough' or something to that effect).

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Grapeshot Bob)

Post #: 132

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/13/2009 3:19:49 PM

micheljq

Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
Status: offline

Be careful with the maps, it would be best to have maps from 194x decade. Some geographic aspects may have change since those years. Cities have expanded, ports may have been completely reshaped. Forest & jungles may have disappeared, since they disappear at an accelerated rate all over the world. Even deserts may have expanded.

The date when the map was done is very important or else the information may be irrelevant with WW2 era.

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 133

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/17/2009 11:29:52 PM

fiveof6

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Joined: 9/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

Be careful with the maps, it would be best to have maps from 194x decade. Some geographic aspects may have change since those years. Cities have expanded, ports may have been completely reshaped. Forest & jungles may have disappeared, since they disappear at an accelerated rate all over the world. Even deserts may have expanded.

The date when the map was done is very important or else the information may be irrelevant with WW2 era.

You are correct regarding things like changing forests and deserts, railroads, cities, and port expansion. But mountains are mountains no matter what year it is. My posts are based on actual observations and picturing a military unit moving through a hex over a three month period.

I agree that map changes should be slow, but if one asked anyone if the terrain around Mombasa is comparable to coastal Norway or British Columbia, then you would be laughed at. An amphibious invasion or any defensive benefit in coastal Kenya would not be complicated by mountains. Since there is no "rough" terrain option, the next closest dominating feature should carry the hex. In this case moving the mountains west solves the issue. The rough terrain five miles from Mombasa would not slow a tank or foot soldier. The mountains 50 miles inland would.

An earlier post stated said it is very difficult to change coastal terrain. If that is the real reason, then I understand. However, so much time has been put into the project to get it right, it seems a shame to let an obvious fix wait.

Regarding the terrain around Nairobi, it may be higher in elevation, but it is not a jagged mountain range. Terrain in the hex north of the city is ragged and deserving of the mountain label. In Nairobi itself, one must look all the way to the horizon to even realize they are near mountains at all and they actually just look like gradual hills. There would be no defensive mountain benefit in Nairobi. There are the Ngong Hills (from "Out of Africa" fame) in a small part of the Nairobi hex, but it is not the defining terrain. There are woods in the north part of the hex that gives way to range land (and lots of today's safari tourism) in the southern part.

If one is trying to acknowledge the Rift Valley by keeping Nairobi mountains I understand that too. While it may be steep, a good 1940s survey team and a bulldozer would have no problem moving west from Nairobi into the valley. Since Alpine only works between two mountain hexes, WiF is caught by its scale.

Keep up the good work folks, I can hardly wait to make my WiF purchase.

Respectfully,

Kevin

http://www.despair.com/tradition.html - This just made me laugh.

(in reply to micheljq)

Post #: 134

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/18/2009 11:55:42 AM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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Here are the changes I intend to do on the map :

� Change the hex 3 S of Portland to Clear terrain (fiveof6).
� Move the NW Strait from Seattle to straight W (fiveof6).
� The two hexes on the SW side of Lake Rudolf should be desert (used to live there) (fiveof6).
� Move the Alpine hex in southern Kenya one hexside W. While Mount Kilimanjaro is a high feature, there is no reason a unit would need to go directly over the top. Within the span of a hexside, the effects of normal mountain terrain would be all that's needed (fiveof6).
� Remove the two coastal mountain hexes (Mombasa and 1 SW), add 1 mountain SW of Mombasa at the border with Tanganyka (fiveof6, Froonp).

I'm also wondering about moving West the two northern mountain coastal hexes in Tanganyika (Taga & the hex SW).

(in reply to fiveof6)

Post #: 135

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/18/2009 5:06:28 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here are the changes I intend to do on the map :

� Change the hex 3 S of Portland to Clear terrain (fiveof6).
� Move the NW Strait from Seattle to straight W (fiveof6).
� The two hexes on the SW side of Lake Rudolf should be desert (used to live there) (fiveof6).
� Move the Alpine hex in southern Kenya one hexside W. While Mount Kilimanjaro is a high feature, there is no reason a unit would need to go directly over the top. Within the span of a hexside, the effects of normal mountain terrain would be all that's needed (fiveof6).
� Remove the two coastal mountain hexes (Mombasa and 1 SW), add 1 mountain SW of Mombasa at the border with Tanganyka (fiveof6, Froonp).

I'm also wondering about moving West the two northern mountain coastal hexes in Tanganyika (Taga & the hex SW).

I have told Patrice that I am willing to make one more pass at touching up the map terrain before final release. I suspect that is why he is enumerating them all here.

If you have any more ideas about changing map terrain, time is running out.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 136

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/18/2009 9:56:16 PM

fiveof6

Posts: 23
Joined: 9/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I'm also wondering about moving West the two northern mountain coastal hexes in Tanganyika (Taga & the hex SW).

The Tanganyika coast is much rougher terrain than Kenya's, but I have not actually seen it-I do not know whether it should be clear or not.

Kevin

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 137

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/19/2009 2:11:12 PM

micheljq

Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
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My comment here was not specifically aimed at this particular post, but to all people in general using maps to help on the project. I was concerned when I saw comments on other posts where people were describing a port in U.S. but describing it from a 200x point of view. In 194x, the port may as well not existed or be 75% smaller. Speaking of mountains, I did not mention them. I don't think some mountains may have changed, not yet!

quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

Be careful with the maps, it would be best to have maps from 194x decade. Some geographic aspects may have change since those years. Cities have expanded, ports may have been completely reshaped. Forest & jungles may have disappeared, since they disappear at an accelerated rate all over the world. Even deserts may have expanded.

The date when the map was done is very important or else the information may be irrelevant with WW2 era.

(in reply to micheljq)

Post #: 138

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/20/2009 9:23:07 AM

Peter Stauffenberg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
[I have told Patrice that I am willing to make one more pass at touching up the map terrain before final release. I suspect that is why he is enumerating them all here.

If you have any more ideas about changing map terrain, time is running out.

Maybe it's then a good idea to post a link to screenshots of the the latest version of the map and tell people this is the FINAL chance to make comments to the map. I guess it's hard for not betatesters to know how the map exactly looks like right now because we've made several refinements since the last time we posted the map screenshots. Most of the already posted screenshots can be used, but in some areas I guess there are minor changes we haven't seen yet.

Personally I don't think there will be many comments to improve the map because I think the map is maybe 99% correct already due to a lot of work from Patrice and others. The only areas would be where somebody has personal knowledge about an area, like the newest changes in Kenya. All maps have slight inconsistencies because a hex will usually consist of several terrain types and you have to pick one of them.

The current map will have a few inconsistencies due to the lack of certain map types in WIFFE (rough terrain, atolls etc.). So my suggestion is to wait for MWIF2 before we make a big review of the map layout. I guess some mountain or forest hexes will become rough in MWIF2. The MWIF1 map is probably as good as it can get (99% at least).

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 139

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/20/2009 1:32:04 PM

Anendrue

Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
[I have told Patrice that I am willing to make one more pass at touching up the map terrain before final release. I suspect that is why he is enumerating them all here.

If you have any more ideas about changing map terrain, time is running out.

Maybe it's then a good idea to post a link to screenshots of the the latest version of the map and tell people this is the FINAL chance to make comments to the map. I guess it's hard for not betatesters to know how the map exactly looks like right now because we've made several refinements since the last time we posted the map screenshots. Most of the already posted screenshots can be used, but in some areas I guess there are minor changes we haven't seen yet.

Personally I don't think there will be many comments to improve the map because I think the map is maybe 99% correct already due to a lot of work from Patrice and others. The only areas would be where somebody has personal knowledge about an area, like the newest changes in Kenya. All maps have slight inconsistencies because a hex will usually consist of several terrain types and you have to pick one of them.

The current map will have a few inconsistencies due to the lack of certain map types in WIFFE (rough terrain, atolls etc.). So my suggestion is to wait for MWIF2 before we make a big review of the map layout. I guess some mountain or forest hexes will become rough in MWIF2. The MWIF1 map is probably as good as it can get (99% at least).

I wouldn't mind seeing the latest version of the map. I am also glad to hear it is 99% awesome.
As for the 1% - you can make some of the ppeople happy some of the time. You can alsom make none of the people unhappy all of the time. But you will never make all of the people happy all of the time. So any complainers can jump in a lake.

_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)

Post #: 140

RE: Africa Bitmaps - 1/20/2009 5:37:44 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
[I have told Patrice that I am willing to make one more pass at touching up the map terrain before final release. I suspect that is why he is enumerating them all here.

If you have any more ideas about changing map terrain, time is running out.

Maybe it's then a good idea to post a link to screenshots of the the latest version of the map and tell people this is the FINAL chance to make comments to the map. I guess it's hard for not betatesters to know how the map exactly looks like right now because we've made several refinements since the last time we posted the map screenshots. Most of the already posted screenshots can be used, but in some areas I guess there are minor changes we haven't seen yet.

Personally I don't think there will be many comments to improve the map because I think the map is maybe 99% correct already due to a lot of work from Patrice and others. The only areas would be where somebody has personal knowledge about an area, like the newest changes in Kenya. All maps have slight inconsistencies because a hex will usually consist of several terrain types and you have to pick one of them.

The current map will have a few inconsistencies due to the lack of certain map types in WIFFE (rough terrain, atolls etc.). So my suggestion is to wait for MWIF2 before we make a big review of the map layout. I guess some mountain or forest hexes will become rough in MWIF2. The MWIF1 map is probably as good as it can get (99% at least).

I wouldn't mind seeing the latest version of the map. I am also glad to hear it is 99% awesome.
As for the 1% - you can make some of the ppeople happy some of the time. You can alsom make none of the people unhappy all of the time. But you will never make all of the people happy all of the time. So any complainers can jump in a lake.