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RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/19/2009 8:17:05 PM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

Thanks!  Looks great!

Any chance of throwing the Falklands into Modern Wars II?  Great Britain would already be in the OOB, but I'm not so sure about Argentina.


They are both planned for Volume II, yes.

GB, while there, is being redone from the ground up.

Jason Petho


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Post #: 31
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/19/2009 8:29:57 PM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

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From: Los Osos, CA
Status: offline 		I never bought the original Divided Ground because of the bugs and the fact that Talonsoft was breaking up at the time.....but was always interested...

Am I on target if I state that Modern Wars: Volume I could be labelled Divided Ground Redux?

ChadG

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Post #: 32
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/19/2009 8:35:51 PM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Juggalo

I never bought the original Divided Ground because of the bugs and the fact that Talonsoft was breaking up at the time.....but was always interested...

Am I on target if I state that Modern Wars: Volume I could be labelled Divided Ground Redux?

ChadG


Modern Wars: Volume I is the Middle East Conflicts (ex-Divided Ground; although completely redone, most of the original scenarios have been scrapped) and Vietnam.

Two games on the one disc.

Jason Petho



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Post #: 33
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/19/2009 8:44:30 PM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

Posts: 1152
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Los Osos, CA
Status: offline 		OK, I'm sold...


But curious why you'd scrap most of the original scenarios?

Were they that bad?

ChadG

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"If you want peace, prepare for war."

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Post #: 34
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/19/2009 8:59:48 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Juggalo

But curious why you'd scrap most of the original scenarios?

Were they that bad?


Quite frankly, yes.

Jason Petho



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Post #: 35
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 3:22:36 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Divided Ground scens were not so good to me. Didn't matter PBEM or vs AI. The Vietnam mod on the other hand is excellent. You have to get used to asymetrical fighting though.

The problem I have with modern CS is the firepower at range. For example I move a company of T55s (3x3sp) against some Leos or Challengers. Either, their range is longer and I get shot before I can shoot, or when I use the terrain and pop up into LOS, I get opfired to death. Depending on the map situation, it is very difficult to bleed the opfire and overwelm a well done defensive line.

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 36
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 4:05:05 AM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
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Status: offline 		Well thats a problem in modern warfare.....the west has all the advanced sh*t so you will get roasted at further range playing against any western power.

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Post #: 37
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 5:18:03 AM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		One just needs a few Hind's!

Jason Petho


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Post #: 38
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 12:26:16 PM   
Geomitrak


Posts: 179
Joined: 6/11/2007
From: Cambridge, UK
Status: offline 		Jason, is it feasible to include the ability to sap ? By that I mean for units to dig a trench towards an enemy and so advance along it ?

It would mean units could alter the concealment rating in a hex adjacent to them, before moving into it.

Only limited unit strength points could benefit from it until the hex was converted from a sapped hex to one with full trenches.

Is it possible do you think ? My signature indicates why I am interested in the possibity, of course.

Regards

Paul

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Post #: 39
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 2:07:29 PM   
Legionaer

 

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From: Mainz, Deutschland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

The problem I have with modern CS is the firepower at range. For example I move a company of T55s (3x3sp) against some Leos or Challengers. Either, their range is longer and I get shot before I can shoot, or when I use the terrain and pop up into LOS, I get opfired to death. Depending on the map situation, it is very difficult to bleed the opfire and overwelm a well done defensive line.

You´re right, but that´s the modern war. I spend some times for a better understanding about the power of modern tank shells, anti tank missiles, rec. rifles and at the other side the armour of the vehicles. The "known" weapon.pdt/pdx files for the modern Addons are not very good realised. A revising here is important, i told it Mike last year.

quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

Well thats a problem in modern warfare.....the west has all the advanced sh*t so you will get roasted at further range playing against any western power.

Well, the NATO forces are equipped since the 60s/70s with better electronic equipment and can open fire about longer ranges. But the gun´s of the T-72 and T-64/T-80 tanks are also dangerous for ranges to 1000 meters. And the WP doctrine were massive attacks with overwhelming forces, that could permits a theoretical patt.


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(in reply to junk2drive)
Post #: 40
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 5:02:01 PM   
1925frank

 

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Status: offline 		When I played Divided Ground, one of the things that struck me was some sort of infantry platoon in a 1973 scenario that could shoot some sort of anti-tank device maybe 20 hexes with devestating effect.  If these anti-tank units got off a shot, there were kills virtually every time that I remember.   

In that scenario I'm thinking about, the Israelis approach the Suez Canal in 1973 with a company of tanks, and the Egyptians are waiting with these anti-tank units, among other units.  It was exceptionally hard to even get within soft-target range of these Egyptian anti-tank units without getting tanks destroyed first.

I was never computer smart enough to install the Vietnam version, but my impression from reading the posts was that the Vietnam version is what kept Divided Ground alive moreso than the Arab-Israeli conflicts of 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973.  Martin Crevald (I may have his name mangled) wrote a book covering all four conflicts. 


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Post #: 41
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 5:12:20 PM   
Jason Petho


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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

When I played Divided Ground, one of the things that struck me was some sort of infantry platoon in a 1973 scenario that could shoot some sort of anti-tank device maybe 20 hexes with devestating effect.  If these anti-tank units got off a shot, there were kills virtually every time that I remember.   

In that scenario I'm thinking about, the Israelis approach the Suez Canal in 1973 with a company of tanks, and the Egyptians are waiting with these anti-tank units, among other units.  It was exceptionally hard to even get within soft-target range of these Egyptian anti-tank units without getting tanks destroyed first.



Crisis of Overconfidence is the scenario you're refering to.

The Sagger missiles are what you were encountering, much the same as the Israeli's did during the counterattacks (to relieve the Bar-lev strongpoints)in the first days of the war. Lessons were learned and tactics were altered to help minimize the effect from the Egyptian Sagger/RPG anti-tank teams.

That particular scenario has been scrapped, but a new version will be available for those who enjoy the punishment.


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
I was never computer smart enough to install the Vietnam version, but my impression from reading the posts was that the Vietnam version is what kept Divided Ground alive moreso than the Arab-Israeli conflicts of 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973.  Martin Crevald (I may have his name mangled) wrote a book covering all four conflicts. 


I have to agree, Vietnam did keep DG alive all these years.

I am hoping with all the work the BETA Brigade and Campaign Series Legion are doing on the Middle East Conflicts, there will be a renewed interest in the system. The Middle East Conflicts is not just limited to the wars of 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. I am truly excited about this offering.

Jason Petho



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Post #: 42
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 6:15:11 PM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1039
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Status: offline 		After reading Crevald's book, I too thought the Arab-Israeli conflicts offered a great deal. 

The 1948 conflict required a lot of improvisation and pulling together of diverse weaponry, some of it leftovers from the Second World War.  Crevald discusses a number of Israeli paramilitary organizations that existed.  A lot of the troops on both sides of the conflict were poorly trained.

For people who like tank battles, the subsequent conflicts are gold mines.  I don't think Vietnam offered tank battles on the same scale or with the same diversity, although I could be wrong.

I also remember the tanks and planes were exceptionally diverse, with Soviet, British, French, and American models. 

The helicopter transports added a whole new dimension to troop movement and tactics.

The RPGs radically alter tank tactics.  I was stunned to see anti-tank weaponry that effective from that range, and the units firing the anti-tank weapons were small and numerous. 

Lack of familiarity with the Arab-Israeli conflicts might have been the biggest impediment to Divided Ground.  I'm assuming the majority of the people buying the game were far more familiar with the Vietnam conflict, and the tanks and planes and whatever else was there in Divided Ground was easy to incorporate into the Vietnam conflict.

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Post #: 43
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 6:51:43 PM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

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From: Los Osos, CA
Status: offline 		Where does the Korean War fit into all this?

Mike already did a mod....will it be implemented in this game?

ChadG

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Post #: 44
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 6:53:26 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Juggalo

Where does the Korean War fit into all this?

Mike already did a mod....will it be implemented in this game?

ChadG


That will be included in Modern Wars: Volume II along with NATO vs Warsaw Pact

Jason Petho


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CS Vietnam

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Post #: 45
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 6:57:55 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

After reading Crevald's book, I too thought the Arab-Israeli conflicts offered a great deal. 

The 1948 conflict required a lot of improvisation and pulling together of diverse weaponry, some of it leftovers from the Second World War.  Crevald discusses a number of Israeli paramilitary organizations that existed.  A lot of the troops on both sides of the conflict were poorly trained.

For people who like tank battles, the subsequent conflicts are gold mines.  I don't think Vietnam offered tank battles on the same scale or with the same diversity, although I could be wrong.

I also remember the tanks and planes were exceptionally diverse, with Soviet, British, French, and American models. 

The helicopter transports added a whole new dimension to troop movement and tactics.

The RPGs radically alter tank tactics.  I was stunned to see anti-tank weaponry that effective from that range, and the units firing the anti-tank weapons were small and numerous. 



Agreed on all counts.

With all the reading and research I have been doing for this, I am surprised by the amount of interesting scenarios that can and will be depicted. There is an abundance of scenario type and a variety of challenges which make the Middle East component rather appealing, especially for those familiar with the current Campaign Series.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
Lack of familiarity with the Arab-Israeli conflicts might have been the biggest impediment to Divided Ground.  I'm assuming the majority of the people buying the game were far more familiar with the Vietnam conflict, and the tanks and planes and whatever else was there in Divided Ground was easy to incorporate into the Vietnam conflict.


You are correct... let's hoping this release helps in changing that!

Jason Petho



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CS Vietnam

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Post #: 46
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 7:28:45 PM   
Dumnorix


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quote:

Modern Wars: Volume I is the Middle East Conflicts (ex-Divided Ground; although completely redone, most of the original scenarios have been scrapped) and Vietnam.

Two games on the one disc.


And we are to already again pay for it? I have meanwhile all CS-versions in English and German, also DG. Why I am already again to pay, for something which I already have.

Und wir sollen dafür schon wieder zahlen ? Ich habe mittlerweile alle CS-Versionen in englisch und deutsch, auch DG. Warum soll ich schon wieder zahlen, für etwas das ich schon habe.

H.Balck (GRANDMASTER OF MODERN WARS IN EUROPE)

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Post #: 47
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 7:34:45 PM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dumnorix

And we are to already again pay for it? I have meanwhile all CS-versions in English and German, also DG. Why I am already again to pay, for something which I already have.


The existing, unsupported Divided Ground and the Modern Wars volumes are apples and oranges.

Jason Petho



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Post #: 48
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 7:57:11 PM   
1925frank

 

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Status: offline 		The book I read is "The Sword and the Olive:  A Critical History of the Israeli Defense Force" by Martin Van Creveld.  I bought it precisely because I had Divided Ground and realized I knew nothing about the conflicts other than they had occurred.  I believe it starts out with Israeli paramilitary groups from the 1920s, and it covers all the conflicts, including the Lebanese events in 1982 if I'm not mistaken.  Because it covers all the conflicts, it doesn't cover any one in particular in great depth, but it does provide a nice overview.

Edit: For anyone who likes tank battles, Divided Ground will be a super addition. Not all of the tank battles were in the desert. I think Syria and Israel engaged in a massive tank battle in 1967 arouind the Golan Heights, which I don't think of as desert, but I could be wrong. It's been a while since I read the book.

< Message edited by 1925frank -- 3/20/2009 8:01:34 PM >

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Post #: 49
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/20/2009 8:19:25 PM   
Legionaer

 

Posts: 449
Joined: 6/8/2007
From: Mainz, Deutschland
Status: offline 		Hi 1925frank,

two very good and high qualifized books are:

Arabs at War, Military Effectiveness 48-91 from Kenneth M. Pollack and
The Arab-Israeli Wars, War and Peace in the middle East from Chaim Herzog.

Important to understand this modern wars and their results. It explains a few points why the arab armies with their good and modern weapons lost the conflicts.

And for our modern war games: A lot of work should solve some of the "problems"!

Stefan

_____________________________

I create and revise: OoB´s, ToE´s, Weapon Values for Modern Wars (forever CWE!) Working on OoB´s for the new CSCW and scenario playtesting for the Beta Brigade.

(in reply to 1925frank)
Post #: 50
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/21/2009 12:06:56 AM   
V22 Osprey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

One just needs a few Hind's!

Jason Petho



But then your Hind's will be be roasted by the west's super advanced airforce.

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Post #: 51
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/21/2009 12:13:13 AM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

One just needs a few Hind's!

Jason Petho



But then your Hind's will be be roasted by the west's super advanced airforce.



Unfortunately, the west's superior airforce has to break through the notorious Soviet anti-aircraft defence first.

Jason Petho



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Post #: 52
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/21/2009 12:33:57 AM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

One just needs a few Hind's!

Jason Petho



But then your Hind's will be be roasted by the west's super advanced airforce.



Unfortunately, the west's superior airforce has to break through the notorious Soviet anti-aircraft defence first.

Jason Petho




Yea, you have to give them that, their Anti Aircraft is lengendary.(especially after they shot down an american U2 spy plane)

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 53
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/21/2009 2:30:27 PM   
Geomitrak


Posts: 179
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From: Cambridge, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak

Jason, is it feasible to include the ability to sap ? By that I mean for units to dig a trench towards an enemy and so advance along it ?

It would mean units could alter the concealment rating in a hex adjacent to them, before moving into it.

Only limited unit strength points could benefit from it until the hex was converted from a sapped hex to one with full trenches.

Is it possible do you think ? My signature indicates why I am interested in the possibity, of course.

Regards

Paul


Jason, any thoughts on this ? Is it possible, or is there some other way sapping can be modeled ?


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Post #: 54
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/21/2009 6:33:20 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak


quote:

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak

Jason, is it feasible to include the ability to sap ? By that I mean for units to dig a trench towards an enemy and so advance along it ?

It would mean units could alter the concealment rating in a hex adjacent to them, before moving into it.

Only limited unit strength points could benefit from it until the hex was converted from a sapped hex to one with full trenches.

Is it possible do you think ? My signature indicates why I am interested in the possibity, of course.

Regards

Paul


Jason, any thoughts on this ? Is it possible, or is there some other way sapping can be modeled ?



Unfortunately, I don't think it is possible?

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head would be the use of commando type units that can move without being seen. Or the use of smoke.

Jason Petho



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Post #: 55
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/22/2009 9:20:15 PM   
dudalb_slith

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 6/20/2002
Status: offline 		They were pretty weak, but ,out of curiosity will original scenarios for DG load into Modern Battles?

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 56
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/22/2009 9:23:21 PM   
dudalb_slith

 

Posts: 168
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dumnorix

quote:

Modern Wars: Volume I is the Middle East Conflicts (ex-Divided Ground; although completely redone, most of the original scenarios have been scrapped) and Vietnam.

Two games on the one disc.


And we are to already again pay for it? I have meanwhile all CS-versions in English and German, also DG. Why I am already again to pay, for something which I already have.

Und wir sollen dafür schon wieder zahlen ? Ich habe mittlerweile alle CS-Versionen in englisch und deutsch, auch DG. Warum soll ich schon wieder zahlen, für etwas das ich schon habe.

H.Balck (GRANDMASTER OF MODERN WARS IN EUROPE)


A. You don't have to buy it. No one will take a way your copy of DG.
B. DG was a good idea ruined by a lot of bugs and weak scenario design.'
C. They will be a lot of new scenarios on the mIdeast, and I understand it will not just cover the Arab Isareali wars.
D.The Vietnam section of the game will be completly redone aslo, although the mod was pretty good.
E. They will be fully supported.




< Message edited by Jason Petho -- 3/22/2009 11:34:30 PM >

(in reply to Dumnorix)
Post #: 57
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/22/2009 9:27:26 PM   
dudalb_slith

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 6/20/2002
Status: offline 		It might be too soon, but a possible list of scenarios would be fun to see.

(in reply to dudalb_slith)
Post #: 58
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/22/2009 11:33:26 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dudalb

They were pretty weak, but ,out of curiosity will original scenarios for DG load into Modern Battles?


In short, no.

The primary countries are being rebuilt from the platoon file up, meaning that existing scenarios will not be compatible with the new release.

Jason Petho

_____________________________


CS Vietnam

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(in reply to dudalb_slith)
Post #: 59
RE: Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek. - 3/22/2009 11:34:14 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dudalb

It might be too soon, but a possible list of scenarios would be fun to see.


Once we are getting close to release, I will offer up a list of scenarios and their descriptions.

Jason Petho


_____________________________


CS Vietnam

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(in reply to dudalb_slith)
Post #: 60
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