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If Germany Invaded Britain...

 
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If Germany Invaded Britain... - 4/14/2009 11:03:09 PM   
Shazman

 

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If Germany had invaded the British Isles would Roosevelt have asked Congress for a declaration of war against the Axis?

Personally I think he could have very well done that. There would have been a huge outpouring of sympathy for the Brits. Also, Roosevelt dispised Hitler and the Nazis. He had also indicated there was no way he wanted Germany to expand it's industry any further through conquest and Britain had a fair amount. There would have been no shortage of support in Congress. The threat of a Nazi controlled Atlantic Ocean would also have been a possibility. Seems the reasons for a yea outnumber the reasons for a nay.

Does anyone know what the opinion was at the time? Was there enough of a pro war sentiment for such an invasion to tip the scales? I've not read anything about this particular subject myself and am curious.

Cheers
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RE: If Germany Invaded Britain... - 4/15/2009 9:34:39 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shazman

If Germany had invaded the British Isles would Roosevelt have asked Congress for a declaration of war against the Axis?


You have to remember that in the Summer of 1940 the Allied cause looked to most observers to have already been lost. What turned things on their head was the rebuff the Germans suffered in the Battle of Britain, but a German invasion of Britain means that the air battle has been more successful than it was historically, and probably conducted earlier. The outlook for Britain- in the minds of the world at the very least- will be exceptionally bleak, and Roosevelt would have been embroiling the United States in a war which they might very well find themselves fighting alone if Britain surrendered. Furthermore, it would have taken months for more than a token American force to have been deployed in the British Isles.

I think where you might see American intervention would be if there was a combination of the trademark German atrocities (this time against English speaking men and women) and spirited British resistance which showed the potential to last into the Winter. I'm sure the American people were sympathetic to many of Germany's victims, but they felt it would have been a pointless task to interfere in another European war after their experience last time.

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RE: If Germany Invaded Britain... - 4/16/2009 9:33:54 PM   
ColinWright

 

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Roosevelt was pushing the envelope about as hard as he could as far as getting America into the war -- and a lot of water passed under the bridge between the middle of 1940 and the end of 1941.  Aside from everything else, in 1940 Russia was still Hitler's ally, but after mid-1941 she wasn't.  This made for a polar switch in the position of the more doctrinaire far left. This group was a tiny minority, but it was a vocal minority, and its jump from uneasy quiescence to vociferous advocacy of intervention must have made a discernible difference.

I can't see America entering the war in 1940 -- unless, as Ben suggests, British resistance was prolonged into the winter.  Roosevelt might decide to make the 1940 election a referendum on the issue.  He'd be politically stupid to do so, but he might decide to take the chance, if the wave of sympathy for the brave Britons was strong enough.

This last -- British resistance being prolonged  -- isn't out of the question.  The big stumbling block for the Germans is getting past the R.N.  There's obviously some mid-range where enough Germans get by the RN to establish a viable beachhead -- but not so many as to make a beachhead that can be expanded.  Sort of a Gallipoli-like situation.

On the other hand, one has to recognize what a sea-change getting involved in a foreign war was for us back then.  There had been World War One, but that had only reinforced what had been our traditional attitude up until then.  We weren't the world's policeman.  Foreigners did awful things to each other, and we liked to send food parcels and bandages -- but actually involve ourselves in the fight?  Not likely.

Most likely, I see an acceleration of all the lend-lease, neutrality zone, etc measures that we historically took over the course of 1941.  I don't see us moving to actual war until Germany has starting sinking American destroyers and stuff -- and they're going to avoid doing that for as long as they can. Finally, and in any case, we haven't much to send. We started rearming in 1940 as it was -- and weren't able to field significant combat forces until late 1942. That time line can't get accelerated all that much.

So we's a comin' -- if the Britons can just hang on until early 1942. Still, even a stated commitment to enter the war in Europe does create some interesting alternatives. Like, maybe we and our British partners decide it's best to keep on appeasing Japan, and they keep contenting themselves with slaughtering Chinese. The Pacific War never starts.

In 2009, we're still negotiating for a two-state solution in China. Japan is demanding that the Chinese Authority recognize the Japanese nature of the coastal provinces. People are decrying the sinister influence of AJPAC on Capitol Hill. Unreasonable Chinese are insisting that a Chinese State incorporate ALL of China above the Yangtze Gorges.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 4/16/2009 9:59:12 PM >


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RE: If Germany Invaded Britain... - 5/15/2009 7:50:12 PM   
Shawkhan

 

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There is an excellent alternative history book by Peter Tsongas called 'Third Reich Victorious' which exhaustively examines this possibility as well as many others in WWII. I suggest you take a look at this.

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RE: If Germany Invaded Britain... - 5/17/2009 6:37:18 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawkhan

There is an excellent alternative history book by Peter Tsongas called 'Third Reich Victorious' which exhaustively examines this possibility as well as many others in WWII. I suggest you take a look at this.


Thanks. I'm going to. The name is 'Tsouras,' though. My first search was by author, and that wasn't very rewarding.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 5/17/2009 6:45:50 AM >


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RE: If Germany Invaded Britain... - 10/1/2009 8:35:50 PM   
PhillipH

 

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Colin, Shawkhan,

I can recommend the book, but I believe his longer single topic book "Disaster at D-Day" is excellent, and much better for being longer. I fully recommend it if you can get hold of a copy. The basic premise is that (1) the Omaha landings fail with the first wave of the US1ID being eliminated and the remainder diverted to the British and Canadian beaches; (2) British 1AB is dropped beyond Caen (as originally planned) extending the bridgehead far beyond the British ability to reinforce and hold the ground dubiously gained; and lastly a more successful than planned British landing taking them into Caen (as planned) on D+1, greatly enlarging the lodgement they had to defend. The identification of the 1st and 4th British Airborne having been committed, as well as captured documents from the Omaha wreckage convinces Hitler to release many of the infantry divisions "holding" Calais, and puts the Allies and Germans on a reinforcement race, which the Germans then win. The relatively ill-equipped British and Canadians are progressively stoved in by Panzer division attacks whilst, confined to the Cotentin, the American corps are unable to lend assistance or generate enough combat power through the bocage to generate a drawing off of German resources.

Slightly dubious deux-ex-machina to finish it off, but a terrific read, I fully recommend it.

PhillipH

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RE: If Germany Invaded Britain... - 10/1/2009 10:31:47 PM   
desert


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In a topic about WW2 alternate history fiction, Harry Turtledove cannot go unmentioned.

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RE: If Germany Invaded Britain... - 10/2/2009 6:32:38 AM   
fogger

 

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I disagree with your assessment that Roosevelt had the numbers in congress. In the book “The Storm of War” by Andrew Roberts on page 589, Roberts points out that “the President did not the political power to declare war against Germany…”. Roberts further goes on to say that it was Germany declaring war on the USA that gave Roosevelt the excuse for the German first policy. The book is a good read and is best summed up in the conclusion that “Hitler started the war because he was a Nazi and lost the war because he was a Nazi”.

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