Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: doomtrader

In all my games, yes.

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ORIGINAL: IS

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ORIGINAL: doomtrader

In all my games, yes.

Well, it is not true Judging by this http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2090857 AI simply landed in Arkhangelsk with one unit, knowing that that hex was empty. AI not cheating? Don`t think so

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ORIGINAL: Chocolino

Just found out that Mulberries can be taken out by a single successful air attack. They have to be in sight to attack them of course. They are extremely vulnerable. It is already hard to shield them against land attacks but shielding them against an air strike is neigh impossible. That strongly reduces the usefulness of a mulberry in my opinion to the point of them becoming almost without meaningful application.

The Mulberry has been introduced to allow amphibious landing at places other than port cities to make it a bit less predictable. But that means that in an amphibious setting, the attacker had to build a cordon of 4 hexes wide in the first turn around the mulberry to keep it invisible and hence in place. That leaves just situations where the usual land supply is so stretched (next city too far away) that one wants to use a nearby mulberry to boost it. That is further limited by mulberries only available in coastal hexes. But for only this it is very expensive.

In my eyes it would suffice to have air strikes reduce the supply coming from a Mulberry for the next turn, recovering slowly afterwards (maybe similar to strategic bombing reducing the resources from a city).

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If the player can't provide absolute air superiority over his landing beaches, he shouldn't be using mulberries.

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If you'll remember, the Allies had OVERWHELMING air superiority over Normandy and it was pretty much worth any Luftwaffe pilot's life to even stick his nose into that airspace. If my recollection is correct, the Luftwaffe managed to provide a whopping TWO sorties over the invasion beaches on June 6, and didn't see much improvement after that due to the massive Allied air cover.

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Just wanted to say that the FOW can be set at various distance.

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ORIGINAL: James Ward

If you have air superiority and want to force your opponent to fight then you need to see a target and air attack it with every unit in range. The ground attacks will be intercepted by any air unit in range. Even better is if you land and can see enemy air units the air unit can be attacked directly with any of you air units.

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ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

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ORIGINAL: James Ward

If you have air superiority and want to force your opponent to fight then you need to see a target and air attack it with every unit in range. The ground attacks will be intercepted by any air unit in range. Even better is if you land and can see enemy air units the air unit can be attacked directly with any of you air units.

Absolutely James -- ten or twelve allied air units plastering every axis unit within sight of the landing beaches would decimate an already moribund Luftwaffe. Air superiority isnt achieved in a month, it was gradually developed in the 18 months from 1943 to June 1944. An air campaign against France (and as a side benefit) what remains of the Luftwaffe in France like the Allies carried out in the first half of 1944 would make an attack on one of the two mulberries a hopeless luxury to a Germany dieing in the fires of Berlin, Hamburg and Dresden while Army Group Center is being eaten alive in the East.
+w

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If you have air superiority and want to force your opponent to fight then you need to see a target and air attack it with every unit in range. The ground attacks will be intercepted by any air unit in range. Even better is if you land and can see enemy air units the air unit can be attacked directly with any of you air units.

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ORIGINAL: Chocolino

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If you have air superiority and want to force your opponent to fight then you need to see a target and air attack it with every unit in range. The ground attacks will be intercepted by any air unit in range. Even better is if you land and can see enemy air units the air unit can be attacked directly with any of you air units.

James and Mike, no bad feelings but I disagree. There are three points I would like to make so that it maybe becomes a bit clearer:

1) The underlying problem in the game system is that even overwhelming air superiority alone is not enough to protect a Mulberry, you need absolute air superiority in RTV since a single successful air attack even of a potentially understrength air unit is enough to destroy it. As the attacker you have to ensure that there is not a single air unit left that can be used after the landing. That is what you cannot ensure in my opinion as explained in point 2).

2) Your suggested method of achieving absolute air superiority works only if you play the AI or the defender is a willing accomplice. He may not be. In RTV you can obviously avoid air combat as the defender, and you CANNOT force it as the attacker before a planned landing. That is the main point. As a defender you just have to keep either

-at least one single air unit in reserve and out of range (i.e. 20 hexes or more) from any active region or

- even better buy a new one when you need it for this purpose from your strategic PP reserve.

In the meanwhile let your opponent bomb or strat. bombing the heck out of any hexes for as many turns as he likes before the landing, it will be completely in vain for the purpose of achieving absolute air superiority.

3) I am only concerned with playability. RtV and history have only a remote resemblance at best as we all know. So I am not too concerned if RtV represents history correctly. But even when using historic arguments I believe that supply depots where not overstretched balloons popping after the first needle was injected.

In my eyes the fact remains that Mulberries can be taken out at will by the defender. They need better protection from instant aerial annihilation (not ground attack) to remain useful. There is probably a reason why we don't see them so often used in player to player games I assume.

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Now perhaps you can say the defense strength should be raised but they shouldn't be indestructible.

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ORIGINAL: Chocolino

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Now perhaps you can say the defense strength should be raised but they shouldn't be indestructible.

James, that seems to be a very good solution and I fully agree.

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as cities are, which are strat-bombed. Otherwise they should be invulnerable to air attack.

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ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

Perhaps the most accurate soloution is to allow the supply points available from a mulberry to be susceptable to reduction from a successfull air attack.

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ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

My recollection of the construction of mulberries is that they would be difficult to damage (a force 10 gale managed to do it, temporarily), but the activity of a mulberry would probably be easy enough to distrupt (large numbers of thin skinned trucks sitting around.)

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ORIGINAL: BlueMak

Please don't make it so they are basicaly indestructible to air assaults. Just because you can't protect your assets, don't harm the game for the rest of us.

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ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

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ORIGINAL: BlueMak

Please don't make it so they are basicaly indestructible to air assaults. Just because you can't protect your assets, don't harm the game for the rest of us.

You know, Max, I really think that with your attitude, you might be happier playing Stratego.

The mulberries were esentially floating concrete boxes supporting roadways and piers, that were then anchored to the sea bottom and filled with water. Parts of them are visible off Gold beach to this day, only 65 years later. It is well recognised that the American mulberry failed because it wasn't anchored properly to the bottom. I suspect that you could throw 250 kg bombs at them all day long and only scratch the paint.

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ORIGINAL: BlueMak

Please don't make it so they are basicaly indestructible to air assaults. Just because you can't protect your assets, don't harm the game for the rest of us.

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You know, Max, I really think that with your attitude, you might be happier playing Stratego.


Interesting point you make there Annabel. So please tell me, were these mulberries built on site? Did they suddently appear out of nowhere? If they were actualy sent there with tug boats or whatever, was it done while the Germans had air superiority? Was it done while it would not be that difficult for the germans to attack them on route? If they were indeed attacked if the germans had enough air assets, do you think they would just stand there and take the punishment till the second coming of Jesus? Or would they be damaged but never ever destroyed because, come on, they are made of concrete and as we all know you can't possibly destroy concrete, ever.
So, as you can see Jack, the realism you are asking for can be seen in both ways.
But perhaps with your attitude you should go and play risk, just right up your alley I suspect.