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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> Rifle Grenades Page: [1]
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Rifle Grenades - 4/25/2009 5:06:57 PM   
vahauser


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Status: offline 		How do you evaluate rifle grenades? Are they the equivalent of 45mm light mortars? How do you incorporate them into rifle squads? Are squads equipped with rifle grenades the same as heavy rifle squads?

What are your thoughts/ideas/suggestions?

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/26/2009 12:47:07 AM   
desert


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Status: offline 		Higher AT value would be appropriate.

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/26/2009 1:44:42 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: desert

Higher AT value would be appropriate.


Would it? I just assume that the standard rifle squads include these kinds of basic infantry anti-tank weapons. The AT rating of 1 allows these squads to kill light armoured vehicles, especially on defence. Anything with any signficant armor value would be quite invulnerable to such weapons, so anything more would be excessive.

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/26/2009 2:01:18 AM   
vahauser


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Status: offline 		golden delicious,

Not every squad had rifle grenades, though.  How would you rate squads that had rifle grenades?  Heavy rifle squads?

EDIT: As an aside, I've seen armor-piercing values ranging from 20mm to 50mm for rifle grenades, which probably justifies an AT rating of 1 or at most 2.

< Message edited by vahauser -- 4/26/2009 2:09:09 AM >

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/26/2009 2:30:18 AM   
desert


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Talks about German antitank grenades, some of which had more than 100mm penetration capability.

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/26/2009 4:30:21 AM   
vahauser


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I'm more interested in representing rifle grenades in the game.  TOAW already has AT ratings for squads (AT-, AT, and AT+).  I want suggestions regarding what kind of squad a squad that has rifle grenades should be.  Right now, I'm guessing calling them Heavy Rifle squads.

Specifically, I'm working on the old France 1940 scenario, trying to update it to TOAW III.  The French had a lot of rifle grenades (the VB grenade launchers), and the Germans had their Sp Gew 30 rifle grenades.  They seemed to add a lot of firepower to the squads.  I'm guessing enough extra firepower to call them Heavy Rifle squads.

What do the rest of you think?

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/26/2009 6:28:54 AM   
desert


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Status: offline 		Looking at the default TOAW equipment list, heavy rifle squads have the same AT value and 1 more AP. I guess that would be appropriate for VBs, since they're more suited to AP. But for other rifle grenades you might want assault squads (with 5 AP), or Heavy Rifle AT-, etc... depending on their role and usefulness.

So you aren't using your improved WW2 unit database for this scenario?

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/26/2009 2:37:54 PM   
vahauser


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Yes, I'm using my WW2 database.  However, that database is a work in progress.  Threads like this help me to keep improving my database as well as for general information/discussion.

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/26/2009 7:56:23 PM   
secadegas

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

desert,

I'm more interested in representing rifle grenades in the game.  TOAW already has AT ratings for squads (AT-, AT, and AT+).  I want suggestions regarding what kind of squad a squad that has rifle grenades should be.  Right now, I'm guessing calling them Heavy Rifle squads.

Specifically, I'm working on the old France 1940 scenario, trying to update it to TOAW III.  The French had a lot of rifle grenades (the VB grenade launchers), and the Germans had their Sp Gew 30 rifle grenades.  They seemed to add a lot of firepower to the squads.  I'm guessing enough extra firepower to call them Heavy Rifle squads.

What do the rest of you think?



I think TOAW isn't a tactical game.




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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/26/2009 9:36:39 PM   
vahauser


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Status: offline 		Sekadegas,

TOAW is all about "counting rifles".  So, what do rifle grenades count as?

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/26/2009 9:45:01 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

golden delicious,

Not every squad had rifle grenades, though.


If not rifle grenades, then some other kind of grenade, or satchel charges, or molotov cocktails, or sticky bombs, or whatever.

During the Italian invasion of Abyssinia, tribesmen were known to rush Italian tankettes and physically lift them off their tracks to disable them. Infantry in almost any situation will have a basic level of anti-tank capability.


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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/26/2009 10:02:14 PM   
vahauser


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Status: offline 		golden delicious,

It's a shame this thread got sidetracked onto the antitank issue.  I couldn't care less about the antitank capabilities of rifle grenades.  TOAW already has the means to deal with that issue (AT-, AT, AT+).

What I'm interested in is the increased firepower in an antipersonnel role of rifle grenades.  How much extra antipersonnel firepower do rifle grenades contribute to a squad, and how should that be reflected? 

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/26/2009 11:12:42 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

What I'm interested in is the increased firepower in an antipersonnel role of rifle grenades.  How much extra antipersonnel firepower do rifle grenades contribute to a squad, and how should that be reflected?


It's going to be a marginal difference. What if one rifle has an 8 round magazine and the other has a 10 round magazine? What if one grenade produces 10% more explosive power than another? At some point you are going to have to let go or you'll spend forever comparing the rates of VD in Second World War armies.

FWIW, the Equipment List with the game indicates that all the combat rifle and mounted rifle squad types include grenades. Whether these are fired or thrown is really not going to make a huge difference.

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"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/26/2009 11:30:30 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

What I'm interested in is the increased firepower in an antipersonnel role of rifle grenades.  How much extra antipersonnel firepower do rifle grenades contribute to a squad, and how should that be reflected?


It's going to be a marginal difference. What if one rifle has an 8 round magazine and the other has a 10 round magazine? What if one grenade produces 10% more explosive power than another? At some point you are going to have to let go or you'll spend forever comparing the rates of VD in Second World War armies.

FWIW, the Equipment List with the game indicates that all the combat rifle and mounted rifle squad types include grenades. Whether these are fired or thrown is really not going to make a huge difference.


I'm with Ben here. When rating the impact of things, it has to be something dramatic to get my attention -- like a second machine gun in the squad, or an especially successful (or unsuccessful) tactical doctrine.

Add that the VB grenade launchers seem to have been neither adopted by the Germans (who were quite willing to adopt anything that looked good) nor kept by the French. This hardly suggests it was a dramatically effective weapon. One suspects that the French would have done better or at least as well having whoever was carrying the thing just carry more ammo for the MG instead. This leads to the suspicion that the weapon may not have made any net positive contribution to the squad's firepower at all.

'Hilfe! Sie haben 'teufelwerfers'!' The German assault troops at Sedan tumble back into the river, dismayed. I don't think you'll find much in the way of eulogies to the VB in combat.


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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/28/2009 6:36:33 PM   
Central Blue

 

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quote:

How do you evaluate rifle grenades? Are they the equivalent of 45mm light mortars? How do you incorporate them into rifle squads? Are squads equipped with rifle grenades the same as heavy rifle squads?

What are your thoughts/ideas/suggestions?


Well, if you really wanted to drill down, I would look at whether they increase the overall weight of fire the squad could generate. Is there a significant difference in weight and rate of fire for rifle grenades over standard grenades? If you want to get into a really detailed breakdown, you would have to figure out how often people were throwing or firing those grenades of a given weight, and then account for the fact that they wouldn't be shooting their weapon when they are dealing with the grenades.

On the other hand, the Italian Brixia fired its round at somewhere between 18 - 25 rounds per minute -- depending on your source. And it was a dedicated support weapon; so the people using it weren't deciding whether to fire their rifles or the mortar.

So I would say that the only added value of the WWII era rifle grenade in this game is how you rate their AT factor.

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/28/2009 6:48:51 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

If you want to get into a really detailed breakdown, you would have to figure out how often people were throwing or firing those grenades of a given weight, and then account for the fact that they wouldn't be shooting their weapon when they are dealing with the grenades.


Then factor in range, accuracy, the effectiveness of the shrapnel produced by anti-personnel grenades, wind direction and whether there's an r in the month.


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RE: Rifle Grenades - 4/28/2009 7:44:43 PM   
Central Blue

 

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quote:

Then factor in range, accuracy, the effectiveness of the shrapnel produced by anti-personnel grenades, wind direction and whether there's an r in the month.


If you think any of those are important factors that could be used to more accurately depict the AP factor of the squad.

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 5/12/2009 6:44:02 AM   
akdreemer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

golden delicious,

It's a shame this thread got sidetracked onto the antitank issue.  I couldn't care less about the antitank capabilities of rifle grenades.  TOAW already has the means to deal with that issue (AT-, AT, AT+).

What I'm interested in is the increased firepower in an antipersonnel role of rifle grenades.  How much extra antipersonnel firepower do rifle grenades contribute to a squad, and how should that be reflected? 


IIRC, The French VB did not have an anti-tank capability in 1940. It was fairly accurate and with a useful range of about 150 meters. It was to be replaced with a 50mm mortar.

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 9/6/2009 7:40:45 PM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

How do you evaluate rifle grenades? Are they the equivalent of 45mm light mortars? How do you incorporate them into rifle squads? Are squads equipped with rifle grenades the same as heavy rifle squads?

What are your thoughts/ideas/suggestions?


Wiki mentions this:
quote:

The French grenade, named the V-B grenade after its inventors, Vivien and Bessières, was fired from the standard service rifle with the use of a special adapter and a standard cartridge, providing an effective range of around 175 to 200 yards, while the effective radius of the bursting grenade was 75 yards.


Since antipersonnel ratings in TOAW are based on weight of fire, you may wish to consider how often a VB (and hand grenades as well) would be used by a squad during a minute of combat. I've seen somewhere how many VBs a French squad was supposed to carry but I don't think that helps a lot in this design decision as including all them in squad firepower will likely have the squad firing the entire amount every time the squad fires. It might boil down to a designer deciding whether the squad will have the chance to resupply its grenade stock by the time the next instance of firing arrives. Of course, the same consideration could be applied to rifle and LMG ammunition as well.

This is useful as well:
quote:

• Grenade explosive Mle1915 (VB de guerre) (explosive and fragmentation, dangerous in a 100m range)
caliber : 50 mm
weight : 490g
explosive : 60g
range : 80-170 m (800mm barrel rifle) or 145-215m (450mm barrel carbine)
The sighting device Mle1917 M is graduated from 10m to 10m until 170m
rate of fire : 4-9 rpm (therefore usually a group of 3-4 VB launchers are firing together)

There were about 16 tromblons VB issued per company which could cover a 200m wide front and fire together at up to 150 rpm.
Ranges of VB grenades : the grenades range was determined by the angle of fire that the trombon was pointed when the grenade fired.

Angle of Fire and Range (with the Balle "D" service bullet loaded with BN3F powder and 800mm barrel ) :
45° : 190 meters
50° : 175 meters
55° : 170 meters
60° : 160 meters
65° : 140 to 150 meters
75° : 110 to 120 meters
80° : 85 to 100 meters
85° : 80 meters


• VB illuminating/flare grenade (had to be fired with a cartridge without bullet which is also shown on the photo)

• VB message grenade
The message grenade, called grenade "lance-messages" or "grenade porte-messages", was used to send messages from one trench section to another over heavily engaged areas. These grenades contained a fuze which at the end of the fuses cycle would detonate a small smoke packet so that it could be found. Range of 350m.

Note : At the end of 1939 Brandt developed also a 50mm HEAT rifle grenade. It had a range of about 100m and an armor penetration of 40mm. It entered in production during May 1940 and was successfully tested at the Satory test range on 10th June 1940 but they could not be issued to the combat units before the armistice.
- from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=112&t=66044

Cheers

B Wilson

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RE: Rifle Grenades - 9/6/2009 8:40:28 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Angle of Fire and Range (with the Balle "D" service bullet loaded with BN3F powder and 800mm barrel ) :
45° : 190 meters
50° : 175 meters
55° : 170 meters
60° : 160 meters
65° : 140 to 150 meters
75° : 110 to 120 meters
80° : 85 to 100 meters
85° : 80 meters





Note to operator: do not attempt 90°.

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