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RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/10/2009 3:34:28 PM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Example of a 1940 East coast defence of Spain could look like. (Situation could be a Invasion attempt from very brave (fool) Italian. The AIO must be prepared for everything.

I would place the fighter in a forrest hex in this setup. Most likely in one of the 2 forrest hexes between Madrid and Barcelona. I think I would place a stronger unit in M�laga. I would feel more comfortable with at least a 3 strength unit in that hex. If M�laga is lost the road towards Gibraltar is open and it becomes easy to disrupt the railroad from Gibraltar into central Span. I would place one of the static garrisons in Barcelona. With a mobile unit in Madrid it can be used as reserve after the suprise impulse.

< Message edited by Orm -- 5/10/2009 8:47:49 PM >

(in reply to peskpesk)

Post #: 31

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/10/2009 8:54:46 PM

peskpesk

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The question is: Against a Large threat (by land/paradrop) how would you defend the north border of Spain? How many units would the required and where should they normally be placed?

Remember that Vichy French can be collapsed�

Look on the image:

Ex my suggestion is that the standard hexes, in priority order are:

Bilbao
Mountain Hex (63,23)
Mountain Hex (64,25)
Mountain Hex (64,26)
Barcelona
Mountain Hex (65,27)
Mountain Hex (65,26)
Mountain Hex (65,28)
Mountain Hex (64,24)

and that 7 to maximum of 10 units are assigned to the region.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 5/10/2009 9:24:07 PM >

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 32

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/10/2009 9:02:33 PM

peskpesk

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Example of the pervious post is

Attachment (1)

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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

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Post #: 33

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/10/2009 9:33:21 PM

peskpesk

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Here is an example of how a Large threat (by land/paradrop) against the north border of Spain and a Small threat (by invasion) to the east cost of Spain could be handled by the AIO.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to peskpesk)

Post #: 34

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/11/2009 5:42:37 AM

christo

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Not bad but I would have it a bit different.
The Western aspect of the Pyrenees border looks nicely defended. The east though is too weak. They are both equally important.
The 2-5 cav is worth 4 in the mountains and against a determined assault it will be slaughtered. It would be better on the east coast where its superior mobility can be used to isolate attackers. This then leaves only a single 5 factor unit (doubled to 10 points) the defend the whole rail line. Once it is conquered then the other Spanish forces will be bypassed.
The two units in the middle of the line are too strong.
Any attack through the middle will not achieve a great deal. Yes any attackers will get some ground and ultimately allow more axis units to join the assault on the hero cities, but it will not in of itself win the battle. I would be tempted to move the second unit (? 4-3) to Barcelona.
I agree with a previous poster that the main purpose has to be to delay the advance on Gibraltar.
To expect anything else is unrealistic.

Christo

(in reply to peskpesk)

Post #: 35

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/11/2009 4:25:23 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Here is an example of how a Large threat (by land/paradrop) against the north border of Spain and a Small threat (by invasion) to the east cost of Spain could be handled by the AIO.

If there is a paradrop threat on Spain, I would rather put the HQ on Saragossa rather than Madrid. There are few chances that the Axis paratroopers can reach Madrid, and if they did, they would be isolated until the army join with them from the front, which can be from 1 to 3 turns since the paradrop, so they have large chances of being destroyed.

(in reply to peskpesk)

Post #: 36

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/11/2009 5:07:09 PM

composer99

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The main axis of advance in an Axis assault on Spain is usually from France; the limited Axis sealift available in 1940-1941 means they are unlikely to press inland from the coast. The Axis can present threats of invasion/paradrop behind the Pyrenees that could allow them to bypass the defence lines there which the Spanish must guard against.

Nevertheless, if the CW has the land and air units to spare there are about four excellent defensive lines from the Pyrenees on to delay the Axis advance on Gibraltar.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 37

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/12/2009 7:32:28 AM

oscar72se

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Yes, it is possible for the Axis to paradrop in Saragossa 40-41. Getting supplies there is another story though... What about invasions in Valencia? If one worries about this and there isn't a paradrop threat towards Madrid the HQ could be put in Barcelona (since it is the most easily defended city in Spain), the 5-3 where the CAV is and the CAV in Valencia.

I like this setup as a defence against Axis invasions, but if there is a risk of invasion in and around Valencia this city needs to be defended.

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 38

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/12/2009 4:51:41 PM

praem

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I'd rather loose Valencia than Malaga if there is chance of the invasion has a stratefic aim (lots of forces ready to exploit the bridgehead) - Valencia doesnt realy lead anywhere - its in the mountains and far from Madrid and furhter still from Gibraltar - If the threat is minor (divs and maybe 1 corp), Valencia is not close enough to the Pyranees to make any significant change in the defensive stance/effect on suply.

With the threat described as minor, I'd only try and hold Cartagena and Barcelona on the coast. I agree with moving the HQ closer to the border - Saragossa seems good, but I migth consitter placing it as part of the line instead (near the railline)

(in reply to oscar72se)

Post #: 39

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/13/2009 8:11:30 AM

Greywolf

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Hum, I would say thoses plan need to take into account 4 things :

1- Who is the Spain Major Power Controller (CW probably ?)
2- What CW units are avaliable ( in France holding around Bordeaux, in England, is there some quick sealift avaliable )
3- What is the situation in the Med ( Balanced, Up Axis, Up Allies ).
4- Is surprised ZoC in effect or not (major difference on this one ).

63,23 and 65,27 are the 2 keys hexagones if the Axis cant assure supply by the sea. 64,26 is important too. The trouble is not letting the Germans enter. The trouble is not letting them do it easily. And ZoCing the supply lines is one of the more effective way to have them use far more unit on non-combat duty or attack on high defence area than otherwise.

There is a lot of other mountain pairs of Hex in Spain that can achieve this supply cutting ZoC trick...

If the Axis is able to supply his advance from the Med then the defense of the Eastern Ports is vital.

If there is some CW unit in France or ready to disembark ( a WP or mountain unit in Barcelona will buy quite a lot of time for Gibraltar I think ) then you can concentrate more of the spanish unit in speedbumping in the mountain city of the north. The German cant supply an attack on Gibraltar without Barcelona or Guernica Area cleared. Guernica can be covered but that take 3 corps, Barcelona need to be taken and 64,25 64,26 and 65,27 covered to avoid any infiltration.

The main trouble of the Spanish is the lack of White Print unit for mountain defense...

_____________________________

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(in reply to praem)

Post #: 40

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/13/2009 8:47:07 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

Hum, I would say thoses plan need to take into account�4 things :

1- Who is the Spain Major Power Controller (CW probably ?)
2- What CW units are avaliable ( in France holding around Bordeaux, in England, is there some quick sealift avaliable )
3- What is the situation in the Med ( Balanced, Up Axis, Up Allies ).
4- Is surprised ZoC in effect or not (major difference on this one ).

63,23 and 65,27 are the 2 keys hexagones if the Axis cant assure supply by the sea. 64,26 is important too. The trouble is not letting the Germans enter. The trouble is not letting them do it easily. And ZoCing the supply lines is one of the more effective way to have them use far more unit on non-combat duty or attack on high defence area than otherwise.

There is a lot of other mountain pairs of Hex in Spain that can achieve this supply cutting ZoC trick...

If the Axis is able to supply his advance from the Med then the defense of the�Eastern Ports is vital.

If there is some CW unit in France or ready to disembark ( a WP or mountain unit in Barcelona will buy quite a lot of time for Gibraltar I think ) then you can concentrate more of the spanish unit in speedbumping in the mountain city of the north. The German cant supply an attack on Gibraltar without Barcelona or Guernica Area cleared. Guernica can be covered but that take 3 corps, Barcelona need to be taken and 64,25 64,26 and 65,27 covered to avoid any infiltration.

The main trouble of the Spanish is the lack of White Print unit for mountain defense...

When playing against the AIO, Surprise ZOCs will not be available as an option.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Greywolf)

Post #: 41

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/13/2009 8:54:26 AM

csharpmao

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
When playing against the AIO, Surprise ZOCs will not be available as an option.

Never in MWiF version 1, or maybe with an update later ?

< Message edited by csharpmao -- 5/13/2009 8:57:59 AM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 42

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/13/2009 7:01:11 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: csharpmao

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
When playing against the AIO, Surprise ZOCs will not be available as an option.

Never in MWiF version 1, or maybe with an update later ?

I think never.

This option really imbalances the game and requires massive changes in disposition of forces - for both the attacker and defender. Given all the other improvements that will linger tantalizingly out of reach for years to come, adapting the AIO to deal with this has so low a priority as to be non-existant

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to csharpmao)

Post #: 43

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/13/2009 9:46:47 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: csharpmao

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
When playing against the AIO, Surprise ZOCs will not be available as an option.

Never in MWiF version 1, or maybe with an update later ?

I think never.

Good thing.

quote:

This option really imbalances the game and requires massive changes in disposition of forces - for both the attacker and defender. Given all the other improvements that will linger tantalizingly out of reach for years to come, adapting the AIO to deal with this has so low a priority as to be non-existant

This is it.
I think that it tries to "model" something that is real, but it is far too much overrated in its modeling, and it results in players taking advantage of it to play even more ahistorical games.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 44

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/13/2009 11:07:06 PM

Mike Parker

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The problem isn't that FoW is impossible, its just that it would no longer be WiF. The system is too complex, the game itself too involved to be able to throw fog of war onto it and make things work out.

If designed from the outset with Fog of War, a game similar to WiF could have been designed alot of rules changes some subtle and some not so subtle would have been made to accomodate it, with the maturity of WiF it would be an enormous undertaking to retrofit it to properly work in Fog of War.

This isn't an exact parallel but its close enough I think to make the point

Chess is a great game, if you had Fog of War in Chess (with two boards and a moderator and rules for when you could see a piece) it would cease being chess. With some rules additions/deletions and changes it might be and probably would be a great game.. it wouldn't be chess though. And chess is a relatively simple game.. the rules changes/additions would be pretty easy to come up with. The same could not be said for WiF.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 45

RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/14/2009 12:07:35 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

The problem isn't that FoW is impossible, its just that it would no longer be WiF.� The system is too complex, the game itself too involved to be able to throw fog of war onto it and make things work out.

If designed from the outset with Fog of War, a game similar to WiF could have been designed alot of rules changes some subtle and some not so subtle would have been made to accomodate it, with the maturity of WiF it would be an enormous undertaking to retrofit it to properly work in Fog of War.

This isn't an exact parallel but its close enough I think to make the point

Chess is a great game, if you had Fog of War in Chess (with two boards and a moderator and rules for when you could see a piece) it would cease being chess.� With some rules additions/deletions and changes it might be and probably would be a great game.. it wouldn't be chess though.� And chess is a relatively simple game.. the rules changes/additions would be pretty easy to come up with.� The same could not be said for WiF.

Yes.
===
I believe there is a variant of chess like this. You 'try' to make a move and the moderator either says Yes or No. If his answer is No, then you have done nothing for your 'turn'. Then the other player gets to 'try'. Your pieces can disappear without you knowing which enemy unit captured them.