Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

What would reviewers make of this complex wargame that has been released with no AI but the promise of one at some point in the future?

What would people who purchased it without realising they wouldn't have a computer opponent think of the game and Matrix in general?

Matrix is committed to MWiF having an AI and always has been for good reason. Get over it because your complaints are not going to change anything. Perhaps you could try going down to the beach to command the tide to obey you too.

Cheers, Neilster

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ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

What would reviewers make of this complex wargame that has been released with no AI but the promise of one at some point in the future?

What would people who purchased it without realising they wouldn't have a computer opponent think of the game and Matrix in general?

Matrix is committed to MWiF having an AI and always has been for good reason. Get over it because your complaints are not going to change anything. Perhaps you could try going down to the beach to command the tide to obey you too.

Cheers, Neilster

lol - its not a complaint, its a wish, you, i and everyone else on here knows its not going to happen. Im not a marketing expert clearly, but just step out into the street and ask any random passer by what they think of WiF - the answer - i have no idea what youre talking about!! the majority of people who are going to buy the game, surely must be those who have played the board game or have seen this forum and its discussions thru matrix - i would also suggest that even if PCZONE or any other gaming mag who wouldnt normally touch this game with a barge pole gave it 25% with or without an AI, that everyone on this forum and who play the game will buy it anyway. This isnt command and conquer or world at warcraft - its niche, its market is niche and its customer are niche.

and who are these people who are going to buy the game without understanding there is no AI - who? its only available from matrix, are you telling me there are people who will accidentally come across the site not read about the game, and choose it from random from the games menu and buy it? no, it isnt going to happen - buyers ALL will have some familiarity with this site, this forum and know, if it happened, that there was no AI until the next patch

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

If I may divulge some of what I know of Steve -hopefully he won't mind. For clarity, I'll speak of him in the 3rd person though I realize he's right here. He is well aware of time increments. He will still finish an Axis summer '41 impulse in 15-20 min -no easy feat. He's also discussed the advantage one usurps by taking 3-4 times that long. We would play at his townhouse, and if he said 6:45 (which he might) that meant the table would be stocked with beverages and snacks, ready to go at that time. If I were late, I'd say I couldn't find a parking spot and he'd smile, in a forgiving however non-sympathetic way. His sense of integrity is absolute. He is also very patient though. He put up with my friend and I taking sometimes 45 minutes to an hour moving through all those games.
He seems to be saying it'll be easier and faster in a significant way to program all 3 modes at once. He won't release the game without a good AI because he knows in his heart he has a way to do it. Patience is an essential ingredient to a good product, and anyway, it's not like I have a choice. Short of an epiphany on his part that a pre-AI release would be preferable, I'd say we can expect a result. How 500 hours translates to calender time is another thing.

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ORIGINAL: Greywolf
Then the game is put to sold without AI at 60$ a piece. 2-6 month after it is released with the AI at 60$ a piece, will you buy it a second time ?

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ORIGINAL: Neilster

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ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

What would reviewers make of this complex wargame that has been released with no AI but the promise of one at some point in the future?

What would people who purchased it without realising they wouldn't have a computer opponent think of the game and Matrix in general?

Matrix is committed to MWiF having an AI and always has been for good reason. Get over it because your complaints are not going to change anything. Perhaps you could try going down to the beach to command the tide to obey you too.

Cheers, Neilster

lol - its not a complaint, its a wish, you, i and everyone else on here knows its not going to happen. Im not a marketing expert clearly, but just step out into the street and ask any random passer by what they think of WiF - the answer - i have no idea what youre talking about!! the majority of people who are going to buy the game, surely must be those who have played the board game or have seen this forum and its discussions thru matrix - i would also suggest that even if PCZONE or any other gaming mag who wouldnt normally touch this game with a barge pole gave it 25% with or without an AI, that everyone on this forum and who play the game will buy it anyway. This isnt command and conquer or world at warcraft - its niche, its market is niche and its customer are niche.

and who are these people who are going to buy the game without understanding there is no AI - who? its only available from matrix, are you telling me there are people who will accidentally come across the site not read about the game, and choose it from random from the games menu and buy it? no, it isnt going to happen - buyers ALL will have some familiarity with this site, this forum and know, if it happened, that there was no AI until the next patch

I agree that the majority of purchasers will be familiar with WiF but good reviews will pull in others from the fringe and bad reviews will turn off many who were previously interested. The Operational Art of War is an example of a wargame that sold reasonably well to previously non-wargamers because of it's excellent reviews when it was first released.

I do think some people might see an advertisement for MWiF or hear of it in passing and be interested enough to Google it, find the Matrix site and purchase it without reading the fine print. Matrix are hardly going to put the fact that it doesn't have an AI in banner headlines. Not terribly many, to be sure, but it would certainly leave a bad taste in their mouth.

Cheers, Neilster

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As long as the AI-ers are in the majority they will always have a 'superior attitude' of wait until its done, and that will take as long as it takes, because they WANT an AI and are disgruntled that there could be such a thing as this game without an AI. To me and others, without an AI it is done - im ready to buy and maybe in doing so donate towards the final release with an AI, good grief im almost on your side, offering to pay for the rest of the development!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:


As long as the AI-ers are in the majority they will always have a 'superior attitude' of wait until its done, and that will take as long as it takes, because they WANT an AI and are disgruntled that there could be such a thing as this game without an AI. To me and others, without an AI it is done - im ready to buy and maybe in doing so donate towards the final release with an AI, good grief im almost on your side, offering to pay for the rest of the development!

As opposed to the non-AIers with their 'superior attitude' that MWiF doesn't need an AI - humans represent the ultimate challenge - use PBEM - and are disgruntled that people could want an AI...

Cheers, Neilster

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were 'friends' - im not arguing with you, but why should anyone be ashamed that there is no AI? do you buy a chess board and wonder why it doesnt come with an opponent oppsosite you? and there would be a huge red flag saying no AI, for now, those that want it - well, itll be along in a few months, when its ready....... this game release is for those who enjoy blah blah blah lots of marketing spin about how great it is to play against an opponent!!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
Matrix are hardly going to put the fact that it doesn't have an AI in banner headlines.

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ORIGINAL: Neilster

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As long as the AI-ers are in the majority they will always have a 'superior attitude' of wait until its done, and that will take as long as it takes, because they WANT an AI and are disgruntled that there could be such a thing as this game without an AI. To me and others, without an AI it is done - im ready to buy and maybe in doing so donate towards the final release with an AI, good grief im almost on your side, offering to pay for the rest of the development!

As opposed to the non-AIers with their 'superior attitude' that MWiF doesn't need an AI - humans represent the ultimate challenge - use PBEM - and are disgruntled that people could want an AI...

Cheers, Neilster

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ORIGINAL: abj9562

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ORIGINAL: Neilster

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As long as the AI-ers are in the majority they will always have a 'superior attitude' of wait until its done, and that will take as long as it takes, because they WANT an AI and are disgruntled that there could be such a thing as this game without an AI. To me and others, without an AI it is done - im ready to buy and maybe in doing so donate towards the final release with an AI, good grief im almost on your side, offering to pay for the rest of the development!

As opposed to the non-AIers with their 'superior attitude' that MWiF doesn't need an AI - humans represent the ultimate challenge - use PBEM - and are disgruntled that people could want an AI...

Cheers, Neilster

Neilster it is not a 'superior attitude' issue and that remark is snide to say the least. Their is a simple reality Matrix has to face. They must maximize sales on the initial release to recoup investment and make a profit. Otherwise why are they in business. When games are relesed to subsegments of a market in a piecemeal fashion costs go up for packaging. Reviewers ask why feature x, y, and z are missing. Including an AI is just sound management provided the delay, additional investment vs potential loss of customers is acceptable. This is purely an accounting and marketing issue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

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As long as the AI-ers are in the majority they will always have a 'superior attitude' of wait until its done, and that will take as long as it takes, because they WANT an AI and are disgruntled that there could be such a thing as this game without an AI. To me and others, without an AI it is done - im ready to buy and maybe in doing so donate towards the final release with an AI, good grief im almost on your side, offering to pay for the rest of the development!

As opposed to the non-AIers with their 'superior attitude' that MWiF doesn't need an AI - humans represent the ultimate challenge - use PBEM - and are disgruntled that people could want an AI...

Cheers, Neilster

Neilster it is not a 'superior attitude' issue and that remark is snide to say the least. Their is a simple reality Matrix has to face. They must maximize sales on the initial release to recoup investment and make a profit. Otherwise why are they in business. When games are relesed to subsegments of a market in a piecemeal fashion costs go up for packaging. Reviewers ask why feature x, y, and z are missing. Including an AI is just sound management provided the delay, additional investment vs potential loss of customers is acceptable. This is purely an accounting and marketing issue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

Face it... there is a group of people that will buy it the day it is released.

Then there is a group of people that will buy it if it is well received by the first group.

Then there is a group of people that will buy it on the recommendations of others (reviews, friends, etc.)

The people that are vocal this forum mostly fall into group 1.  (mostly mostly mostly)

The people that fall into group two are generally lurkers (generally generally generally)

The people that fall into group three may not be aware it is being developed.

It is hoped that there are more people in group 3 than in group 2 and more people in group 2 than in group 1.  IMO, economic success depends upon that being true.

After release, if AI, PBEM, or NetPLAY is left out, there will be complainers.  These complainers will slow sales in group 2. 

If group 2 never gets off the ground well, then group 3 may fail to materialize.

If group 3 fails to materialize, there will not be the economic engine to warrant continued development to finish whatever segment is left out.

This is like playing Survivor.  The AI camp needs the PBEM camp needs the NetPLay camp needs the AI camp etc etc etc.  It is only when things get tough that we start looking for someone to throw to the wolves.

I wish I had this game 20 years ago.  I will wait until it is done. 

Not sniping, not trying to be an A$$, just pointing out some ideas as I see them.

One last thing.... If we want MWiF2 (DOD, etc.) we want this to be as successful as possible.  That means that it needs to SHINE when it is released so everyone has glowing reviews. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

and it might happen, im planning on rounding up the non-AI-ers and flying us all out to Hawaii and putting our case to Steve in person

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ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

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ORIGINAL: abj9562

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ORIGINAL: Neilster

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As long as the AI-ers are in the majority they will always have a 'superior attitude' of wait until its done, and that will take as long as it takes, because they WANT an AI and are disgruntled that there could be such a thing as this game without an AI. To me and others, without an AI it is done - im ready to buy and maybe in doing so donate towards the final release with an AI, good grief im almost on your side, offering to pay for the rest of the development!

As opposed to the non-AIers with their 'superior attitude' that MWiF doesn't need an AI - humans represent the ultimate challenge - use PBEM - and are disgruntled that people could want an AI...

Cheers, Neilster

Neilster it is not a 'superior attitude' issue and that remark is snide to say the least. Their is a simple reality Matrix has to face. They must maximize sales on the initial release to recoup investment and make a profit. Otherwise why are they in business. When games are relesed to subsegments of a market in a piecemeal fashion costs go up for packaging. Reviewers ask why feature x, y, and z are missing. Including an AI is just sound management provided the delay, additional investment vs potential loss of customers is acceptable. This is purely an accounting and marketing issue.

why is a million pounds now, and a million pounds in six months any different from 2 million pounds in 6 months?

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Actually "lighting" is a pretty serious issue with computer games, as excessive focus on a monitor can lead to neurological problems. A friend of mine who used to code for Warbirds was forced into disability retirement because of monitor-related seizures that he began to experience.

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While I readily acknowledge your concerns in each and every instance, I have to remind you that stuff can go wrong in a hotseat situation as well. A careless key stroke, a beverage spilled on a keyboard or down the front of a computer case, or something as commonplace as a power outage, all of which can spell finis for your night's gaming.

And who can deny that the PC is a constant headache for many, many wargamers. The loss of a hard-drive or other component, or software related issues, spyware for instance, can be as genuinely vexing to your average grog as anything that you cite above.

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ORIGINAL: abj9562

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ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

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ORIGINAL: abj9562

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ORIGINAL: Neilster

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As long as the AI-ers are in the majority they will always have a 'superior attitude' of wait until its done, and that will take as long as it takes, because they WANT an AI and are disgruntled that there could be such a thing as this game without an AI. To me and others, without an AI it is done - im ready to buy and maybe in doing so donate towards the final release with an AI, good grief im almost on your side, offering to pay for the rest of the development!

As opposed to the non-AIers with their 'superior attitude' that MWiF doesn't need an AI - humans represent the ultimate challenge - use PBEM - and are disgruntled that people could want an AI...

Cheers, Neilster

Neilster it is not a 'superior attitude' issue and that remark is snide to say the least. Their is a simple reality Matrix has to face. They must maximize sales on the initial release to recoup investment and make a profit. Otherwise why are they in business. When games are relesed to subsegments of a market in a piecemeal fashion costs go up for packaging. Reviewers ask why feature x, y, and z are missing. Including an AI is just sound management provided the delay, additional investment vs potential loss of customers is acceptable. This is purely an accounting and marketing issue.

why is a million pounds now, and a million pounds in six months any different from 2 million pounds in 6 months?

Simply put it won't be a million pounds 6 months later. Reviewers and the general public drive these decisions not us. As long as reviewers and off the shelf impulse buyers are the majority of the market the initial impact of no AI will kill future sales potential. Matrix made their decision based on solid marketing data not personal desire. Anecdotal evidence on all of our parts does not add up to what Matrix determined is necessary for the game to be financially viable. So if Matrix says they must have an AI then I say let it be. For me a successful game is more important than AI vs non AI.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

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ORIGINAL: abj9562

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:


As long as the AI-ers are in the majority they will always have a 'superior attitude' of wait until its done, and that will take as long as it takes, because they WANT an AI and are disgruntled that there could be such a thing as this game without an AI. To me and others, without an AI it is done - im ready to buy and maybe in doing so donate towards the final release with an AI, good grief im almost on your side, offering to pay for the rest of the development!

As opposed to the non-AIers with their 'superior attitude' that MWiF doesn't need an AI - humans represent the ultimate challenge - use PBEM - and are disgruntled that people could want an AI...

Cheers, Neilster

Neilster it is not a 'superior attitude' issue and that remark is snide to say the least. Their is a simple reality Matrix has to face. They must maximize sales on the initial release to recoup investment and make a profit. Otherwise why are they in business. When games are relesed to subsegments of a market in a piecemeal fashion costs go up for packaging. Reviewers ask why feature x, y, and z are missing. Including an AI is just sound management provided the delay, additional investment vs potential loss of customers is acceptable. This is purely an accounting and marketing issue.

You must have missed my emoticon and the clear, tounge-in-cheek parody of undercovergeek's original post. He got the joke anyway...

You also musn't have read any of my earlier posts that essentially agree completely with you.

Cheers, Neilster

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

and it might happen, im planning on rounding up the non-AI-ers and flying us all out to Hawaii and putting our case to Steve in person

Why not offer the plane ticket money to Steve to be on the Beta Test squad without any obligations

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ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

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ORIGINAL: abj9562

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ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

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ORIGINAL: abj9562

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ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:


As long as the AI-ers are in the majority they will always have a 'superior attitude' of wait until its done, and that will take as long as it takes, because they WANT an AI and are disgruntled that there could be such a thing as this game without an AI. To me and others, without an AI it is done - im ready to buy and maybe in doing so donate towards the final release with an AI, good grief im almost on your side, offering to pay for the rest of the development!

As opposed to the non-AIers with their 'superior attitude' that MWiF doesn't need an AI - humans represent the ultimate challenge - use PBEM - and are disgruntled that people could want an AI...

Cheers, Neilster

Neilster it is not a 'superior attitude' issue and that remark is snide to say the least. Their is a simple reality Matrix has to face. They must maximize sales on the initial release to recoup investment and make a profit. Otherwise why are they in business. When games are relesed to subsegments of a market in a piecemeal fashion costs go up for packaging. Reviewers ask why feature x, y, and z are missing. Including an AI is just sound management provided the delay, additional investment vs potential loss of customers is acceptable. This is purely an accounting and marketing issue.

why is a million pounds now, and a million pounds in six months any different from 2 million pounds in 6 months?

Simply put it won't be a million pounds 6 months later. Reviewers and the general public drive these decisions not us. As long as reviewers and off the shelf impulse buyers are the majority of the market the initial impact of no AI will kill future sales potential. Matrix made their decision based on solid marketing data not personal desire. Anecdotal evidence on all of our parts does not add up to what Matrix determined is necessary for the game to be financially viable. So if Matrix says they must have an AI then I say let it be. For me a successful game is more important than AI vs non AI.

well said however i have one problem - and i have highlighted and underlined it - i personally dont think the majority of the market are these people. Hell, i dont even think its going to be on a shelf, and there would be no such thing as an impulse buyer - so all your market just disappeared!!

Leaving all of us on here, our friends and anyone who plays the board game - as the majority - not the only customers.

And as neilster has already said - its not going to happen, i just guess i wanted matrix or steve to say why, because to me it makes perfect sense

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I did read the earlier posts and I did miss the emoticon. I thought you had jumped ship and changed your colors. I am glad to know we are still in agreement. Is there a recommended punishment for my sin?

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: amwild

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
But to answer the question directly, we have MWIF scheduled for release as a download in the spring of 2006.

This brings me to the question of MWiF's availability as an off-the-shelf boxed product.

So, will MWiF be available as a boxed product at any stage?

The short answer is that I do not know. How the product is distributed is David Heath's decision.

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ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: amwild

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
But to answer the question directly, we have MWIF scheduled for release as a download in the spring of 2006.

This brings me to the question of MWiF's availability as an off-the-shelf boxed product.

So, will MWiF be available as a boxed product at any stage?

The short answer is that I do not know. How the product is distributed is David Heath's decision.

research research research ABJ9562

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ORIGINAL: abj9562
As long as reviewers and off the shelf impulse buyers are the majority of the market the initial impact of no AI will kill future sales potential.

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ORIGINAL: macgregor

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562
As long as reviewers and off the shelf impulse buyers are the majority of the market the initial impact of no AI will kill future sales potential.

If that's what you think, beyond the gratuitous, you're vastly underestimating the the following of WiF.