struggling with being spotted

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Gary Grigsby's War Between the States >> struggling with being spotted

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struggling with being spotted - 6/8/2009 5:43:52 AM

Treefrog

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Joined: 4/7/2004
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I am struggling badly with how to prevent my troops being spotted.

For example, I'll screen 80 infantry/artillery units plus 20 leaders with 11 cavalry being led by Sheridan with appropriate CSC. JEB or NBF will move into the area with a similar number on a scout from next door moving in summer on a railroad with initiative, so they have 7 MPS. they scout three times. Results are typically 2-3 leaders and 5-7 units per scout on average. So for three scout missions one expects that 6-9 leaders and 15-21 units are spotted.

But no, when I check during my movement phase 60 of my units and almost all my leaders have been spotted.

I don't understand.

How does one prevent this.

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Post #: 1

RE: struggling with being spotted - 6/8/2009 8:59:47 AM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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Don't leave your troops in front-line areas.

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Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Treefrog)

Post #: 2

RE: struggling with being spotted - 6/8/2009 7:49:06 PM

Capt Cliff

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Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

Don't leave your troops in front-line areas.

Putting units "behind the lines" means they would never be able to join a operation into enemy territory, for the Union that is. For the CSA keeping units off the line might work but just hope they get activated when the Federals strike or it's just a matter of counting your dead!

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RE: struggling with being spotted - 6/8/2009 9:02:11 PM

Erik Rutins

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From: Vermont, USA
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If the area itself has been 100% Scouted, then all they're doing is maintaining that Scouting level for any new units that enter. You need to pull back, let your units become unscouted and move into an area that is not constantly being 100% Scouted too when you return to the front line.

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RE: struggling with being spotted - 6/8/2009 10:30:15 PM

Capt Cliff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

If the area itself has been 100% Scouted, then all they're doing is maintaining that Scouting level for any new units that enter. You need to pull back, let your units become unscouted and move into an area that is not constantly being 100% Scouted too when you return to the front line.

Erik, the problem with that is it take 3 months to do that!! One turn to move out, one to move back and then on turn three maybe they activate!!! That's a lot of wasted time. Might just take the burn of being scouted if your on an offensive. Be nice if we could move within the area and not exit to break the spot.

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Post #: 5

RE: struggling with being spotted - 6/9/2009 5:30:57 PM

Treefrog

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Erik,

When playing with FOW we don't know the scouted percentage of a region.

I moved roughly 90 unspotted inf/art into a region adjacent to a CSA region, screened by Sheridan and 11 cav/mtd and sufficient CSC.

The problem I experienced was that the CSA scouted thrice and discovered, as I said,
"Results are typically 2-3 leaders and 5-7 units per scout on average. So for three scout missions one expects that 6-9 leaders and 15-21 units are spotted."

However my total force was about 90 unspotted units (after deduction for spotted cavalry/mounted). Yet when I commenced my next USA movement, about 85 of the 90 previously unspotted inf/art were spotted.

I could not reconcile 15-21 spotted units per feed back (on the video and reading the "E" scroll) with 85 units actually being spotted, which makes me wonder if I am missing something about scouting.

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"L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace."

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Post #: 6

RE: struggling with being spotted - 6/9/2009 7:53:44 PM

Joel Billings

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From: Santa Rosa, CA
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The scouting level will increase each time the area is scouted. Although only some of the units will be spotted on each scouting pass, the scouting level will ultimately usually spot most of the rest if sizable scouting is going on. There's no way to prevent units in the front lines from being scouted by large enemy cavalry forces. Gaining surprise is the exception, not the rule when large cavalry forces are present.

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RE: struggling with being spotted - 6/11/2009 8:32:25 PM

Treefrog

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Thanks Joel.

That was my intuition on the subject.

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Post #: 8

RE: struggling with being spotted - 6/12/2009 6:30:51 AM

Jutland13

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Joined: 7/5/2006
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Treefrog

I have extra spies in the regions you occupy and pay them well in greenbacks and whiskey. There is no hope, plus your bright blue uniforms standout. I hope this helps.

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Post #: 9

RE: struggling with being spotted - 6/12/2009 3:09:43 PM

Berkut

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The entire "scouting" thing in this game is a bit silly. I am not really sure what it is representing - I do not recall any such operations in any of the histories of the war I have read, where there were large scale "scouting" missions conducted on the strategic scale.

Much less "Hey, lets move the entire Army of the Potomac 50 miels away from the front line for a month then move them all back so that Lee won't know where they are!" kind of gamey play the system encourages, or even demands.

Maybe in the next patch there could be an option for a more "simple" scouting system, where scouting is done by cavalry prior to combat with variable results depending on the numbers/leadership/luck etc. of the units involved.

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Post #: 10

RE: struggling with being spotted - 6/12/2009 3:27:33 PM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

The entire "scouting" thing in this game is a bit silly. I am not really sure what it is representing - I do not recall any such operations in any of the histories of the war I have read, where there were large scale "scouting" missions conducted on the strategic scale.

Much less "Hey, lets move the entire Army of the Potomac 50 miels away from the front line for a month then move them all back so that Lee won't know where they are!" kind of gamey play the system encourages, or even demands.

Maybe in the next patch there could be an option for a more "simple" scouting system, where scouting is done by cavalry prior to combat with variable results depending on the numbers/leadership/luck etc. of the units involved.

It represents the intensity of the intelligence collection effort. The withdrawal of units from the front time for redeployment, to create a strategic reserve, or simply to relieve the supply system did take place. Consider 'spotted' to be the default state.

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Post #: 11

RE: struggling with being spotted - 6/12/2009 3:59:51 PM

Berkut

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We are not talking about withdrawing units from the front to form a strategic reserve or relieve supply issues, we are talking about moving the army back and forth to game the spotting mechanics. And no, that was NOT done. It is historically inaccurate, and from a gameplay perspective is annoying and tedious, and for the Union, largely unworkable in a practical sense, with how the activation system works (units pulled back to spoof the spotting routines are not going to activate, and even if they do, will likely not be able to join an offensive, or will arrive late to the battle and not participate).

I am actually trying to think of a time when either side, at the strategic scale, removed troops from a frontline location to form a "strategic reserve". I don't recall it happening. Both sides certainly redeployed units strategically, and both sides certainly understood the importance of operational and tactical reserves, but I cannot recall them really forming strategic reserves to the extent of withdrawing troops from the frontline locations to keep them "out of site", so to speak. Moving troops up to fight was generally too time consuming and difficult to make that workable, I suspect. Your strategic reserve would never get to the point it was needed in time, and it was usually just as easy to simply pull what you need from a front line location and sent it where it was needed anyway, when you had time to do so.

The more I think about cavalry in teh civil war, the more I think it had no roll in the strategic sense it is portrayed. Like artillery, it was in almost all cases strictly a operational or tactical asset. Which isn't to say it was not important, of course it was, but I cannot think of many (any?) examples of it being used as a strategic tool at the scales you commonly see in the game. Even Stuarts deep raid prior to GB was in direct support of that operation, not seperate from it.

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 12