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RE: When? - 6/10/2009 6:14:24 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MajorDude

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: MajorDude

...

They may not understand at first why the land counters don't burn and shrivel upon defeat, why the naval counters don't go "gloog, gloog" as they slip beneath the surface, and why the air counters don't spin and smoke in a death spiral to finally go "kaboom" as they hit the dirt.

...

Hum , Steve , if it isn't too late I think it would actually very nice to have the counter "sunk" with the "gloog, gloog" effect :)

+1 for the best idea on how to improve WiF with the computer version.

Also could we have a "Torpedo Loss" sound when choosing a submarine combat ? and the "Black Sheep" alarm when beginning the interception sub-phase ?

Now I am curious. What sorts of 'in-game' sounds are there now in mwif (not just intro music theme, etc.)? I also ask that because I remembered that there are almost no sounds at all in cwif while most games these days have a lot of sound - music, sound effects, voice acting, etc.

There is a thread on Historical video, sound effects and music. One of my more recent posts lists the sound effects. I am still working on organizing the musis list - but I hope to finish that this week. I'll post it when I do.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to MajorDude)

Post #: 1201

RE: When? - 6/11/2009 5:53:31 AM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

I'm putting my 2 cents in.

May be over-valued at that price.

quote:

You don't don't see all the WiF boardgame players saying; 'gee, if I gotta wait for and pay for an AI that I'm not even going to use, I won't buy it.'

Of course not not. Just note that a significant number of "WiF players" play solitaire. S&T used to survey gamers back in the '70s about their solo wargaming habits. The conclusion was that at least three out of four cardboard-and-paper wargames were played solo. When computer wargames came along, the promise (as articulated by SSI) was "the computer will give you a good game even when nobody else is around to play against you." Got any hard facts on the percentage of computer wargame players who prefer solitaire play?

quote:

You AI guys really crack me up with your 'PC game expertise'.

Who, me? I'm a dyed-in-the-wool PBEMer. In my cardboard-and-paper days, I was part of a nifty little club that averaged around 15 members that got together at least once a week and gamed the heck out of each other. If you got it in your blood, though, other humans are just not enough. Study, history, planning, and just plain fun dictate that you're gonna spend most of your time doing it alone. And hey - what's wrong with that?

quote:

You're speculating and why? Because you want to threaten Steve into forgoing everybody but you, and concentrate all his effort into the stinking AI. I'm sick of it. Someone has to call you guys on this. You have no idea what kind of sales a game this popular will do. You just don't. I wish you'd just shut up.

In support of my earlier comments, I'd sure rather play solo than put up with a jerk like you.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 1202

RE: When? - 6/11/2009 10:52:37 AM

oscar72se

Posts: 100
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Gothenburg Sweden
Status: offline

How is this discussion supporting your interests (which I assume is being able to buy a super-cool WII Strategy Game)? The only accomplishment being reached by arguing about who is the jerkiest and most incompetent is that the people working with the game will grow tired of working with it, which in turn will produce further delays. If I am not misstaken all the decisions AI, PBEM and most of the other stuff you guys are arguing about have already been made. So, wouldn't that mean that it is propably not very fruitful to argue about these topics?

I can understand your frustration about the delays, I would lie if I said that I wasn't a little bit disappointed myself, but I don't see the point of whining in the forum about it. Furthermore I think that the person who is most dissapointed about the postponed release date is Steve. Let's just hope that he doesn't give in, I am not sure that I would put up with all the whining.

It's as simple as this:
- If you like the game, buy it when it is available
- If you don't like it, do something else (i.e. buy another game or whine somewhere else)
- If you're super-anxious and want to help, use this forum to do so

The bottom line is that if the game is to be finished at all, we need to show Steve our support. Btw, go Steve!!!

Regards,
Oscar

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 1203

RE: When? - 6/11/2009 2:30:16 PM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

I'm putting my 2 cents in.

May be over-valued at that price.

quote:

You don't don't see all the WiF boardgame players saying; 'gee, if I gotta wait for and pay for an AI that I'm not even going to use, I won't buy it.'

Of course not not. Just note that a significant number of "WiF players" play solitaire. S&T used to survey gamers back in the '70s about their solo wargaming habits. The conclusion was that at least three out of four cardboard-and-paper wargames were played solo. When computer wargames came along, the promise (as articulated by SSI) was "the computer will give you a good game even when nobody else is around to play against you." Got any hard facts on the percentage of computer wargame players who prefer solitaire play?

quote:

You AI guys really crack me up with your 'PC game expertise'.

Who, me? I'm a dyed-in-the-wool PBEMer. In my cardboard-and-paper days, I was part of a nifty little club that averaged around 15 members that got together at least once a week and gamed the heck out of each other. If you got it in your blood, though, other humans are just not enough. Study, history, planning, and just plain fun dictate that you're gonna spend most of your time doing it alone. And hey - what's wrong with that?

quote:

You're speculating and why? Because you want to threaten Steve into forgoing everybody but you, and concentrate all his effort into the stinking AI. I'm sick of it. Someone has to call you guys on this. You have no idea what kind of sales a game this popular will do. You just don't. I wish you'd just shut up.

In support of my earlier comments, I'd sure rather play solo than put up with a jerk like you.

LOL! Thank you pasternakski. Well there you have it people. Not only won't MWiF sell without an AI(look at the individual petitions 'no AI no sale')But if one offers the proposition of a pre-AI release(albeit in a civil way) he will be labeled 'a jerk'. What we have are AI/pbem thugs bullying this project along whose concern is NOT to see a playable version of the boardgame, but a bunch of new-fangled ideas regardless of how many years it tacks on to the release date. Screw WiF! WiF SHMiF! We want something with great AI and pbem! The WiF community be damned!
Maybe they work for Matrix to defend their decisions. So far...Matrix -6 years, 40$. Me -0.

-Take as long as you like Steve. My argument is not really with you or Matrix, but these sore winners, who think they have to continue to threaten if you don't do what you're already doing anyway.

< Message edited by macgregor -- 6/11/2009 3:50:59 PM >

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 1204

RE: When? - 6/11/2009 3:53:53 PM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline

Lots of speculation here . . . only thing I could say that _might_ have any value, but probably doesn't: as a fairly 'casual' but also 'hard-core' wargamer, and a loyal Matrix fanboy, I personally will wait as long as it takes for you guys to get it as good as you think it needs to be, but I will definitely be interested in buying it. Maybe not the first few weeks post-release, but eventually, definitely would buy it, _if_ it has an AI of at least moderately good quality. Pasternaski made the points for why. Of course I don't know the market any better than anyone, but I suspect there are a lot of guys like me, and indeed, a large fraction of the RTS demographic (who are getting older each year, just like the rest of us) who are like me: no AI = unlikely to buy; at least moderate good AI = likely to buy; an AI that gets touted as "best of class" the way say (e.g.,) GalCivII's gets touted = WILL buy.

Heck, I'd be willing to "invest" $10 _RIGHT NOW_ in an "advance payment" scheme just to promote the development of the game, and give the Dev(s) and Matrix leverage.

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 1205

RE: When? - 6/11/2009 4:24:10 PM

Posts: 4176
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

I'm putting my 2 cents in.

May be over-valued at that price.

quote:

You don't don't see all the WiF boardgame players saying; 'gee, if I gotta wait for and pay for an AI that I'm not even going to use, I won't buy it.'

Of course not not. Just note that a significant number of "WiF players" play solitaire. S&T used to survey gamers back in the '70s about their solo wargaming habits. The conclusion was that at least three out of four cardboard-and-paper wargames were played solo. When computer wargames came along, the promise (as articulated by SSI) was "the computer will give you a good game even when nobody else is around to play against you." Got any hard facts on the percentage of computer wargame players who prefer solitaire play?

quote:

You AI guys really crack me up with your 'PC game expertise'.

Who, me? I'm a dyed-in-the-wool PBEMer. In my cardboard-and-paper days, I was part of a nifty little club that averaged around 15 members that got together at least once a week and gamed the heck out of each other. If you got it in your blood, though, other humans are just not enough. Study, history, planning, and just plain fun dictate that you're gonna spend most of your time doing it alone. And hey - what's wrong with that?

quote:

You're speculating and why? Because you want to threaten Steve into forgoing everybody but you, and concentrate all his effort into the stinking AI. I'm sick of it. Someone has to call you guys on this. You have no idea what kind of sales a game this popular will do. You just don't. I wish you'd just shut up.

In support of my earlier comments, I'd sure rather play solo than put up with a jerk like you.

LOL! Thank you pasternakski. Well there you have it people. Not only won't MWiF sell without an AI(look at the individual petitions 'no AI no sale')But if one offers the proposition of a pre-AI release(albeit in a civil way) he will be labeled 'a jerk'. What we have are AI/pbem thugs bullying this project along whose concern is NOT to see a playable version of the boardgame, but a bunch of new-fangled ideas regardless of how many years it tacks on to the release date. Screw WiF! WiF SHMiF! We want something with great AI and pbem! The WiF community be damned!
Maybe they work for Matrix to defend their decisions. So far...Matrix -6 years, 40$. Me -0.

-Take as long as you like Steve. My argument is not really with you or Matrix, but these sore winners, who think they have to continue to threaten if you don't do what you're already doing anyway.

I know better than to post this or even answer a person like you Mac, but that statement of AI/PBEM thugs did me in. GO PLAY VASSAL please and leave the rest of this community alone, You are the only one calling people names, you ignored my posts above [and others too who dont like the truth] and for good reason you know what I said is true about whos fault this is. "My argument is not with you and Matrix" HAH! WHat bull that is. No it is the AI thugs[Nazis] who caused all of this, it seems you ignore what you want to ignore like the survey taken by Steve which was overwhelming in favor of a good AI. If you continue to post like you do I will come right back at you with your arrogance matched by me. If you change your tone and sit back and wait for a good game I will change my tone and treat your opinions with respect, there are many other things to talk about on these forums then to slice and dice other opinions. PLEASE!

Willy

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 1206

RE: When? - 6/11/2009 4:30:51 PM

Anendrue

Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

Since the AI is already going to be done most of this argument is moot anyway. Matrix and Steve's survey both indicate it should be done and Matrix has put it on the schedule. Now if everybody will go to their corners and cool off before the next round please.

_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 1207

RE: When? - 6/11/2009 4:43:32 PM

Gurggulk

Posts: 41
Joined: 5/28/2009
Status: offline

Bo, thanks for making me check the post for the exact % based on the forum survey.

quote:

Based on 126 respondents, the estimated percentages are 53% AIO, 22% PBEM, 17% NetPlay, 6% solitaire, and 2% head-to-head. From the comments players made, solitaire, and to a lesser extent AIO, will be used to gain experience with the game so they can play against human opponents using PBEM and NetPlay. But over 60% of the respondents expect to play against the AI Opponent most of the time. I now agree with Dave: the AIO is crucial for sales.

Its nice to know that MWiF is progressing day by day, and so much love and respect is shared in the forum for each other.

Keep up the good work, Beta testers and most of all Shannon V. OKeets.

(in reply to Anendrue)

Post #: 1208

RE: When? - 6/11/2009 11:58:49 PM

Jagdtiger14

Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline

Were those the FINAL numbers? I did a poll over at the Yahoo WiF forum and if I recall they were only 40% for AI. Were those numbers included in the final %?
C

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gurggulk

Bo, thanks for making me check the post for the exact % based on the forum survey.

quote:

Based on 126 respondents, the estimated percentages are 53% AIO, 22% PBEM, 17% NetPlay, 6% solitaire, and 2% head-to-head. From the comments players made, solitaire, and to a lesser extent AIO, will be used to gain experience with the game so they can play against human opponents using PBEM and NetPlay. But over 60% of the respondents expect to play against the AI Opponent most of the time. I now agree with Dave: the AIO is crucial for sales.

Its nice to know that MWiF is progressing day by day, and so much love and respect is shared in the forum for each other.

Keep up the good work, Beta testers and most of all Shannon V. OKeets.

_____________________________

Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC

(in reply to Gurggulk)

Post #: 1209

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 12:44:10 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Were those the FINAL numbers? I did a poll over at the Yahoo WiF forum and if I recall they were only 40% for AI. Were those numbers included in the final %?
C

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gurggulk

Bo, thanks for making me check the post for the exact % based on the forum survey.

quote:

Based on 126 respondents, the estimated percentages are 53% AIO, 22% PBEM, 17% NetPlay, 6% solitaire, and 2% head-to-head. From the comments players made, solitaire, and to a lesser extent AIO, will be used to gain experience with the game so they can play against human opponents using PBEM and NetPlay. But over 60% of the respondents expect to play against the AI Opponent most of the time. I now agree with Dave: the AIO is crucial for sales.

Its nice to know that MWiF is progressing day by day, and so much love and respect is shared in the forum for each other.

Keep up the good work, Beta testers and most of all Shannon V. OKeets.

I couldn't figure out a way to incorporate the responses you received with the survey I conducted. While the simple survey I did allowed the player to break down his preferences between modes of play, yours required them to chose one mode of play only.

quote:

From Jagdtiger14:

Well, I think I waited long enough. I posted a poll over at the WiF discussion group back on May 15...its been 10 days now and have gotten 31 responses. The poll is a bit limiting since it is not possible to answer with percentages, only one answer allowed. The WiF discussion list is made up mostly of long-time WiF'ers and basically Grognards who also play many other wargames. The results with 31 responses:
NetPlay=13 votes(42%)
PBEM=5 votes(16%)
HotSeat=0 votes(0%)
AI=10 votes(32%)
Solitaire=3 votes(10%)

The WIF Discussion group poll was roughly the same for Solitaire and Hotseat, with a stronger preference for NetPlay over AIO.

I could do a lot of reading of the tea leaves and try to combine the results of the two surveys, but whatever I did wouldn't be correct mathematically/statistically.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 1210

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 3:38:53 AM

Grapeshot Bob

Posts: 642
Joined: 12/16/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

/me passes around the Bong of Calm Reflection and Brotherly Love.

Everyone take a hit and calm down.

GSB

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 1211

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 6:35:28 AM

yvesp

Posts: 2083
Joined: 9/12/2008
Status: offline

Oh well... going to feed the troll...

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor
LOL! Thank you pasternakski. Well there you have it people. Not only won't MWiF sell without an AI(look at the individual petitions 'no AI no sale')But if one offers the proposition of a pre-AI release(albeit in a civil way) he will be labeled 'a jerk'.

I am not against a no-AI pre-release.
However, this should stay a limited and discreet operation.
Much like games having an open beta.
It just cannot be the first official release, otherwise the game will be marked as beeing a niche-product.
After thar, no way to come out of that hole but having a product that shines like the sun ; we all hope it will be, but there is no way to be sure.

quote:

What we have are AI/pbem thugs bullying this project along whose concern is NOT to see a playable version of the boardgame, but a bunch of new-fangled ideas regardless of how many years it tacks on to the release date. Screw WiF! WiF SHMiF! We want something with great AI and pbem!

You are perfectly right : the purpose is not to have the boardgame on computer, it is to have a computer game that can also incidentaly be played as a boardgame. I think you are quite missing the target there. The costs for developping the "boardame on computer" are so high that only by selling to the majority (i.e. those people who want a real computer game) can the game be released at a reasonnable price. Now, if you can prove that all those people who want a no-AI release are quite willing to pay around 300$ (just a guess) for that, then matrix might possibly reconsider. However, this is such a small market segment that matrix just is not prepared : they know large public releases at standard prices, not small production.

If you want to have a no AI release, then first estimate the number of customer (likely only a subset of the current wif community), make a survey to find the number in these ready to pay a high price for a no-AI release, and then present your case to the matrix sales department.

You should be aware that up to now you are just bashing down open doors : the decision by Matrix and Steve has been made, and it they whom you have to convince, not the other forum participants.

quote:

The WiF community be damned!
Maybe they work for Matrix to defend their decisions. So far...Matrix -6 years, 40$. Me -0.

-Take as long as you like Steve. My argument is not really with you or Matrix, but these sore winners, who think they have to continue to threaten if you don't do what you're already doing anyway.

For some reason I fail to understand, you are becoming aggressive. As states before, the decision is not made here. It's just like you whine to your wife that you don't get pay raises... Go speak with the people who actually decide!

Furthermore, nobody is threatening anybody here ; people are just presenting plain facts, such as : "if this game doesn't have the content I want, I'll buy another game". That's something I believe you are doing everytime you go buy computer games. You don't buy the whole shelves, do you ? So you make choices. It is better when the criteria for these choices are known in advance because it helps making a better product (i.e. one that sells more)

Don't forget : this is a commercial product and not just the dream of old wiffers come true...

Yves

< Message edited by yvesp -- 6/12/2009 6:40:07 AM >

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 1212

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 7:30:20 AM

HansHafen

Posts: 258
Joined: 2/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen
No one has been able to develope an AI worth a darn to date. If you know of a wargame with a good one, tell us.

Sid Meier's Civilizations III, IV, Alpha Centauri.

Company of Heroes has an excellent AI.

Rise of Nations. There are others.

Company of Heroes and others I like (Age of Empires etc.) are RTS games where the computer AI advantage (goodness) comes from arbitary increases in unit strength, mobility etc. reflected in game level choices. (average, even, godly, ungodly etc.) Also, in an RTS the computer makes choices much faster than the human, so it is more effective (good). You have to select the villager and then select the wood you want him to chop. In the same time your computer opponent has done the same thing 50 or 100 times. I don't think these AI are kin to the AI Steve has to develop. They are good, but they seem linear compared to WIF AI requirements. The WIF AI needs much more depth, width and height to it. It has to be able to see behind the front lines to asses dangers, opportunities and possibilities. AI for hex and turn based traditional board wargames like WIF is different than that needed for RTS games. In addition, WIF AI needs to be far more complex than would be necessary for AH Waterloo or such.

Civilization etc are good. But they don't need to be as complex as the WIF AI.

I was playing Commander: Europe at War the other day as the German and the Russian AI in late 1944 had put an infantry unit in everyone of its cities while it was lacking troops at the front. It must have had 25 full strength units wasting in the rear where I obviously had no chance of taking. Any novice human would have moved those units to the front where they were needed.

WIF is just an extremely dynamic system and game that is going to give the AI fits like no other game to date has. This is really going to test Steve's design philosophy, strategy and endurance. It's not just if A then B. Every decision is going to be more like if A-Z then A-Z sub 1-100 each! How do you program the AI to watch what his primary opponent's build strategy is and how should the AI respond? At what point etc. Wow. I hope Steve can do it because if he can it will be marvelous. He will be hailed as a genius in the industry.

(in reply to micheljq)

Post #: 1213

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 7:42:49 AM

Greywolf

Posts: 105
Joined: 11/15/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Were those the FINAL numbers? I did a poll over at the Yahoo WiF forum and if I recall they were only 40% for AI. Were those numbers included in the final %?
C

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gurggulk

Bo, thanks for making me check the post for the exact % based on the forum survey.

quote:

Based on 126 respondents, the estimated percentages are 53% AIO, 22% PBEM, 17% NetPlay, 6% solitaire, and 2% head-to-head. From the comments players made, solitaire, and to a lesser extent AIO, will be used to gain experience with the game so they can play against human opponents using PBEM and NetPlay. But over 60% of the respondents expect to play against the AI Opponent most of the time. I now agree with Dave: the AIO is crucial for sales.

Its nice to know that MWiF is progressing day by day, and so much love and respect is shared in the forum for each other.

Keep up the good work, Beta testers and most of all Shannon V. OKeets.

I think your poll just cant be added to the Matrix ones... simply because I feel that a lot of the people on the Yahoo forum have already voted on the Matrix Poll.

I also think your public is somewhat biased as one of the main purpose of the Yahoo mailing list was to help people find PBEM opponent and games... while most of the people on the matrix site are interested in a computer game and thus AI...

Would be hard to have a right picture of the demographic without a full state survey...

_____________________________

Lt. Col. Ivan 'Greywolf' Kerensky

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 1214

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 10:18:33 AM

StrictlyRockers

Posts: 11
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline

I have been following this thread closely since 2005. I have post #52. I will repeat what I have stated previously and say that this is the greatest wargame ever made. A game this good deserves to be made well and should be given the time it needs to get it right. Don't rush it out, take as much time as you need. PM me if there is any help I can offer. You da man, Steve.

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 1215

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 3:15:13 PM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline

My opinion is apparently unwanted here. The so-called wif boardgame players I mentioned may not exist after all or I would've thought they'd have posted by now. I will now watch quietly. My apologies Steve if you think I've become a burden, though I will not apologize for my POV.

(in reply to StrictlyRockers)

Post #: 1216

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 3:58:31 PM

Jagdtiger14

Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline

Mac,

I am a WiF boardgame player...currently playing in two seperate ftf games with two seperate groups here in south Florida. No need for you to watch quietly, I find myself agreeing with much of what you write and find it valuable(not that it matters what I or others think, Steve is the one you need to appeal to). I think yvesp...not that I have anything against him...but calling you a troll that he's feeding is unwaranted...you've been around 5 years longer than he has.

What Bo writes is even more outrageous and incorrect. As Steve has written in post #1210 above..."...with a stronger preference for NetPlay over AIO." Bo wrote: "...it seems you ignore what you want to ignore like the survey...which was overwhelming in favor of a good AI". I guess its Bo who is doing the ignoring. And...Steve was not able to add the Yahoo WiF list poll...yes, some of them also voted in the MWiF poll(both for and against AI), but I know for a fact that there are many over there who will be interested in buying this product and have no interest in any kind of AI. Here in south Florida there are 4 who are not on either list, and two others that only lurk on the Yahoo WiF list who will be interested in buying MWiF and are not interested in any AI...and I can speak for them since we talk about it every week we get together.

I think debate is healthy...and heated debate is even more healthy...it shows excitement and interest in this game...someone wrote a while back: take a look at some of the other game forums...they're dead.

One more thing...yes, there will be an AI...so the pro-AI people should be happy. In my opinion, a simple AI that can do basic tutorial-like(basic) quality from 1939 to 1945 is a huge thing and a big victory for Steve if he can pull that off in a complicated game like WiF(I think a few turns worth of tutorial quality is good enough)...the pro-AI people should be happy with what Steve has already decided to do for them...asking anything more than a basic tutorial quality AI is greedy on their part and unfairly prolongs the release if the non-AI part of the game is ready.
C

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

My opinion is apparently unwanted here. The so-called wif boardgame players I mentioned may not exist after all or I would've thought they'd have posted by now. I will now watch quietly. My apologies Steve if you think I've become a burden, though I will not apologize for my POV.

_____________________________

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 1217

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 4:51:34 PM

Posts: 4176
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Mac,

I am a WiF boardgame player...currently playing in two seperate ftf games with two seperate groups here in south Florida. No need for you to watch quietly, I find myself agreeing with much of what you write and find it valuable(not that it matters what I or others think, Steve is the one you need to appeal to). I think yvesp...not that I have anything against him...but calling you a troll that he's feeding is unwaranted...you've been around 5 years longer than he has.

What Bo writes is even more outrageous and incorrect. As Steve has written in post #1210 above..."...with a stronger preference for NetPlay over AIO." Bo wrote: "...it seems you ignore what you want to ignore like the survey...which was overwhelming in favor of a good AI". I guess its Bo who is doing the ignoring. And...Steve was not able to add the Yahoo WiF list poll...yes, some of them also voted in the MWiF poll(both for and against AI), but I know for a fact that there are many over there who will be interested in buying this product and have no interest in any kind of AI. Here in south Florida there are 4 who are not on either list, and two others that only lurk on the Yahoo WiF list who will be interested in buying MWiF and are not interested in any AI...and I can speak for them since we talk about it every week we get together.

I think debate is healthy...and heated debate is even more healthy...it shows excitement and interest in this game...someone wrote a while back: take a look at some of the other game forums...they're dead.

One more thing...yes, there will be an AI...so the pro-AI people should be happy. In my opinion, a simple AI that can do basic tutorial-like(basic) quality from 1939 to 1945 is a huge thing and a big victory for Steve if he can pull that off in a complicated game like WiF(I think a few turns worth of tutorial quality is good enough)...the pro-AI people should be happy with what Steve has already decided to do for them...asking anything more than a basic tutorial quality AI is greedy on their part and unfairly prolongs the release if the non-AI part of the game is ready.
C

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

My opinion is apparently unwanted here. The so-called wif boardgame players I mentioned may not exist after all or I would've thought they'd have posted by now. I will now watch quietly. My apologies Steve if you think I've become a burden, though I will not apologize for my POV.

Outrageous amd incorrect [oofa!]I guess you did not like the poll just taken by Steve. If I have missed something here Jadg then I stand corrected, a Yahoo poll? I would have never got into any confrontation with anybody if people here posted with respect to others but that did not happen, why dont you come down on the person who started all the crap about AI people, but then I guess not because you totally agree with MAC, I also respect your opinion and will only challenge one thing, what damn poll are you talking about, it cant be Steves latest poll thats for sure so you dug up some obscure poll somewheres to back up the no AI mania by just a very few. And I didnt know that this game was being put on the computer for the board game players and to be played like a board game of WIF and if it is then I am entirely wrong in my feelings and deeply apoligize to one and all. Going to Ocean City for a week and at this time next year I hope to be playing MWIF with or without an AI,

so be nice to me Jadg while I am gone PLEASE!

Willy

< Message edited by bo -- 6/12/2009 4:57:43 PM >

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 1218

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 4:51:41 PM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Jagdtiger14

Thanks Jagdtiger14. Steve...I probably would never have been able to organize and finish my first game of WiF without his help. He's not only a great player, but a great teacher of WiF. Without his patience for deciphering and explaining the game to my friends and I, we might have abandoned it before PiF came out. Steve however, is also the number one fan of a great AI. Does he demand it? I don't know. He was thinking about it 15 or so years ago when we once spoke about the computer version ADG announced they were going to release. He wants the AI more than anybody. Not because he wants to play against it perse, but because I think in some sick way it'll display his ability to dominate thousands with his superior game strategy. You guys who want a great AI should be very careful what you wish for.

You know I'm not far away from you. I have a new copy of WiFFE with Leaders and i believe AiF and America in Flames. Let me know if any of you guys are interested in it. I'm only in Fort Myers.

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 1219

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 5:03:50 PM

Anendrue

Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

I have to agree macgregor is NOT a troll. Although we disagree on some things and agree on other items; believing in what you do and standing firm is admirable.

_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 1220

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 5:18:49 PM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

I have to agree macgregor is NOT a troll. Although we disagree on some things and agree on other items; believing in what you do and standing firm is admirable.

Thanks abj9562. This poll...it came out 2 or more years after Steve started work on WiF(that would be 12 years since ADG announced it would be released). I wouldn't overestimate it's significance. Steve, an avid golfer, was simply dropping grass blades to see which way the wind was blowing. He had already shot from the tee however.

(in reply to Anendrue)

Post #: 1221

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 5:35:23 PM

Cyote13_MatrixForum

Posts: 8
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

Well, as one of the guys with my name on the CWIF list, I am disappointed that the the release date has been pushed back again, but understand and accept that the quality is what needs to drive the release date. And that the whole game, including am ok AI needs to be part of it. Yes we are all frustrated with each date and push back, but I am willing to wait.

Just as a note, I will play this a lot "disconected" I am on my 4th deployment since 2001, and...well internet access can be spoty at times.

Keep up the good work Steve.

< Message edited by Cyote13 -- 6/12/2009 6:27:22 PM >

(in reply to Anendrue)

Post #: 1222

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 5:59:37 PM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

Seconded. (especially the bolded)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Mac,

I am a WiF boardgame player...currently playing in two seperate ftf games with two seperate groups here in south Florida. No need for you to watch quietly, I find myself agreeing with much of what you write and find it valuable(not that it matters what I or others think, Steve is the one you need to appeal to). I think yvesp...not that I have anything against him...but calling you a troll that he's feeding is unwaranted...you've been around 5 years longer than he has.

What Bo writes is even more outrageous and incorrect. As Steve has written in post #1210 above..."...with a stronger preference for NetPlay over AIO." Bo wrote: "...it seems you ignore what you want to ignore like the survey...which was overwhelming in favor of a good AI". I guess its Bo who is doing the ignoring. And...Steve was not able to add the Yahoo WiF list poll...yes, some of them also voted in the MWiF poll(both for and against AI), but I know for a fact that there are many over there who will be interested in buying this product and have no interest in any kind of AI. Here in south Florida there are 4 who are not on either list, and two others that only lurk on the Yahoo WiF list who will be interested in buying MWiF and are not interested in any AI...and I can speak for them since we talk about it every week we get together.

I think debate is healthy...and heated debate is even more healthy...it shows excitement and interest in this game...someone wrote a while back: take a look at some of the other game forums...they're dead.

One more thing...yes, there will be an AI...so the pro-AI people should be happy. In my opinion, a simple AI that can do basic tutorial-like(basic) quality from 1939 to 1945 is a huge thing and a big victory for Steve if he can pull that off in a complicated game like WiF(I think a few turns worth of tutorial quality is good enough)...the pro-AI people should be happy with what Steve has already decided to do for them...asking anything more than a basic tutorial quality AI is greedy on their part and unfairly prolongs the release if the non-AI part of the game is ready.C

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

My opinion is apparently unwanted here. The so-called wif boardgame players I mentioned may not exist after all or I would've thought they'd have posted by now. I will now watch quietly. My apologies Steve if you think I've become a burden, though I will not apologize for my POV.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 1223

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 6:38:41 PM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline

I'm very hesitant to post this because this just seems to be an endless round and round in circles, but� . . . I guess I cannot resist

Do you "anti-AI" guys actually believe that a game like this, _without_ an AI, would represent a potentially profitable commercial venture for Matrix?

If so, do you have some sort of market data to back up such conclusions?

I certainly don't have detailed knowledge of computer-game markets, let alone strategy wargames markets. But my anecdotal observation is that�all computer-based games of which I'm aware _have_ an AI. Are there computer-games that do not have an AI that are sold? How big a segment of the overall market is that?

The issue of the game being so complex that a 'good' AI is unlikely, or the issue that 'there aren't any that are worth a durn' so far, both seem true to me. Can't argue with either of those points: most computer game AIs are a joke frankly.

But if there is no real market to sell an -without-AI- game to, and no precedent for games without an AI making a publisher like Matrix some profit, then the issues of the challenges of building one with a superlative AI�are effectively�moot. As far as I can tell, games with mediocre or even crappy�AIs make LOTS of profit, and that is sadly just the state of affairs in this hobby/market. Isn't this new Empire Total War game like a huge profit maker despite the fact that it is basically impossible to not win against the AI?

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 6/12/2009 7:09:46 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 1224

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 6:49:21 PM

Jagdtiger14

Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline

Bo, I dont mean to flame you too much...but I am not talking about the Yahoo WiF list poll...unless that is what Steve meant when he posted that there was "a stronger preference for NetPlay over AIO". I am assuming that was the result of the poll done here for MWiF, not Yahoo. I could be mistaken though. If not, then I think the Yahoo poll would add even more to NetPlay over AI. You should be happy since you are getting what you want. Just dont delay my pleasure any longer than need be by expecting a better and better AI.
C

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

As Steve has written in post #1210 above..."...with a stronger preference for NetPlay over AIO."

Outrageous amd incorrect [oofa!]I guess you did not like the poll just taken by Steve. If I have missed something here Jadg then I stand corrected, a Yahoo poll? I would have never got into any confrontation with anybody if people here posted with respect to others but that did not happen, why dont you come down on the person who started all the crap about AI people, but then I guess not because you totally agree with MAC, I also respect your opinion and will only challenge one thing, what damn poll are you talking about, it cant be Steves latest poll thats for sure so you dug up some obscure poll somewheres to back up the no AI mania by just a very few. And I didnt know that this game was being put on the computer for the board game players and to be played like a board game of WIF and if it is then I am entirely wrong in my feelings and deeply apoligize to one and all. Going to Ocean City for a week and at this time next year I hope to be playing MWIF with or without an AI, so be nice to me Jadg while I am gone PLEASE!

Willy

_____________________________

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 1225

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 7:07:08 PM

macgregor

Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

I'm very hesitant to post this because this just seems to be an endless round and round in circles, but� . . . I guess I cannot resist

Do you "anti-AI" guys actually believe that a game like this, _without_ an AI, would represent a potentially profitable commercial venture for Matrix?

If so, do you have some sort of market data to back up such conclusions?

I certainly don't have detailed knowledge of computer-game markets, let alone strategy wargames markets. But my anecdotal observation is that�all computer-based games of which I'm aware _have_ an AI. Are there computer-games that do not have an AI that are sold? How big a segment of the overall market is that?

The issue of the game being so complex that a 'good' AI is unlikely, or the issue that 'there aren't any that are worth a durn' so far, both seem true to me. Can't argue with either of those points: most computer game AIs are a joke frankly.

But if there is no real market to sell an -without-AI- game to, and no precedent for games without an AI making a publisher like Matrix some profit, then the issues of the challenges of building one with a superlative AI�are effectively�moot. As far as I can tell, games with mediocre or even crappy�AIs make LOTS of profit, and that is sadly just the state of affairs in this hobby/market. Isn't this new Empire Total War game like a huge profit maker despite the fact that it is basically impossible to not to win against the AI?

I think this is a valid question. While I am extremely anxious of a project whose original ADG mandate made no allotment for an AI(15 years ago) I realize that this AI will be included and it will be good because that's Steve's vision and it has always been so. That's why i'm so willing to back out of the argument. He's my friend. I don't want him to do it my way -I want him to do it his way. I then thought there would be a way release a non-ai version to those who have patiently waited over ten years for one and then then finish the ai. He's since assured me that it would be an inefficient to the extreme use of time to do so, and I'm not going to argue with him. Everything else I see no need to repeat.

(in reply to Anthropoid)

Post #: 1226

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 8:26:41 PM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline

Why not make a separate thread for this discussion ?
So that I can ignore it easier

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 1227

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 8:28:46 PM

Anendrue

Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

Hey macgregor, why not get into the beta test if you have time. Then you get to play early without an AI. Kind of takes care of what you want eh...

_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

(in reply to macgregor)

Post #: 1228

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 8:32:06 PM

gridley

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/2/2006
From: Caledon
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Why not make a separate thread for this discussion ?
So that I can ignore it easier

I agree.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 1229

RE: When? - 6/12/2009 8:41:27 PM

yvesp

Posts: 2083
Joined: 9/12/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

I think yvesp...not that I have anything against him...but calling you a troll that he's feeding is unwaranted...

Hum... I did not want to start this... Just thought that the topic had been discussed long enough... I'm sorry if MacGreggor took it personally and I hope he would accept apologies. This was not intended.

quote:

you've been around 5 years longer than he has.

This one is not very nice ; is seniority the main criterion on which you decide whether an argument is acceptable or not ?

Still, this would suits me ; just have a look at that somewhat old forum from another planet (at least for me now), which will show you that things are not always as they look...

Still, there are times where I have nothing to say, which is why I did not post here for a very long time, and today should be such a day where I shut my mouth because I know I am now writing stupid things... Oh well...

Yves

< Message edited by yvesp -- 6/12/2009 8:45:48 PM >

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 1230