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RE: When? - 6/12/2009 9:07:45 PM   
gridley

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/2/2006
From: Caledon
Status: offline 		Seriously guys. The "When" thread, the most viewed thread on the forum, is probably not the best place for your back and forth discussion.

I know it started off on a "when" type theme...If it wasn't for the AI it could be released now...but it isn't anymore.

Thanks.

(in reply to yvesp)
Post #: 1231
RE: When? - 6/12/2009 9:26:34 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley
...If it wasn't for the AI it could be released now...

Who said that ?

(in reply to gridley)
Post #: 1232
RE: When? - 6/12/2009 9:34:59 PM   
gridley

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/2/2006
From: Caledon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp


quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley
...If it wasn't for the AI it could be released now...

Who said that ?


I was paraphrasing. But the gist of the arguement from some in the last few pages has been just that.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1233
RE: When? - 6/12/2009 9:37:32 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		People lets get Steve some space to breathe, a very heated discussions about pro this and anti that is a bit counter productive at this stage. All I can say and see for myself is that we are making progress, and the game is ready when it’s ready. But what a game it will be!

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 6/12/2009 9:38:51 PM >

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to gridley)
Post #: 1234
RE: When? - 6/12/2009 9:44:05 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley
...If it wasn't for the AI it could be released now...

Who said that ?


I was paraphrasing. But the gist of the arguement from some in the last few pages has been just that.


Yes, but no people participating in the developpement of MWiF said that, so people here are aguing on thin air. So why not arguing somewhere else ?

(in reply to gridley)
Post #: 1235
RE: When? - 6/12/2009 9:50:25 PM   
macgregor


Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline 		I didn't want to be a burden on Steve by ruffling so many feathers, not by having the argument. The greater burden on Steve i think would be asking him to sort it out or explain things -which i don't think anyone has done. Froonp can't decide if he want's to kick us off his thread or engage someone for even referencing the original argument. Are we wasting webpage or something? The argument, while perhaps trivial in the sense it's over a moot point, is indeed germane to this thread.

< Message edited by macgregor -- 6/12/2009 9:58:30 PM >

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 1236
RE: When? - 6/12/2009 10:35:28 PM   
Mike Parker

 

Posts: 583
Joined: 12/30/2008
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		Mac,

Froonp wasn't rude, he nicely asked to take this argument somewhere else.  I will join him, please take this to its own thread now.  I used to really enjoy this thread, now it just kicks me in the teeth pouring through seemingly endless posts that are NOT applicable to the main point of this thread.

I am not taking sides one way or the other.. I do agree with you neither Froonp nor I nor anyone other than Steve or Matrix folks have the ability to kick you off the thread.  I am just asking nicely.  (or at least I am trying to ask it nicely.. I do not intend offense I promise).


(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 1237
RE: When? - 6/13/2009 12:07:38 AM   
BallyJ

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 5/25/2008
Status: offline 		I must say I agree with this statement. Enough is enough. Let's give it a rest and try to be constructive please
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Why not make a separate thread for this discussion ?
So that I can ignore it easier


(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1238
RE: When? - 6/13/2009 12:09:10 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

I didn't want to be a burden on Steve by ruffling so many feathers, not by having the argument. The greater burden on Steve i think would be asking him to sort it out or explain things -which i don't think anyone has done. Froonp can't decide if he want's to kick us off his thread or engage someone for even referencing the original argument. Are we wasting webpage or something? The argument, while perhaps trivial in the sense it's over a moot point, is indeed germane to this thread.


Macgregor, you have to take into account where you are posting. Matrix makes computer wargames, most of which are hex/turned based, and virtually of which heavily target AI only gamers. As I stated way up stream, I'm on your side to the extent that I don't play this style of game, AI only, or even on a PC, for that matter. That said, I'm not gonna waste a whole lot of keystrokes trying to convince the Romans that they shouldn't be speaking Latin. And while I haven't communicated with the developer regarding any of this, I strongly suspect that they'd be publishing it with some other company were they to insist on "stiffing" the AI players.

Suffice it to say, our hobby has changed pretty dramatically. Divergent opinions on the relative value and merit of a human opponent to gamers is a reflection of that. But, its certainly not new.

As I mentioned in another post in this thread, Avalon Hill was making solo-only games for something like fifteen years before the company failed. Some of them were actually pretty-well "programmed." Tokyo Express comes to mind in that regard. Before that, guys were punching out pieces and soloing the game to learn the rules and plan strategy. Even then, though, there were some people who just didn't want to play against humans. And as hard as that is for me to relate to, I have to acknowledge that for them, computer games with the sort of artificial opponent that's planned for WiF is something of a godsend.

One of these days WiF will emerge from the belly of the beast. I hope that "it" works, which is not to say that its stable, but that its internals are sound and that guys like you and me can have confidence in it, that it won't be buggy and elicit a boatload of "house-rules" for all the stuff that doesn't work or isn't faithful to the boardgame. To me that'd be a whole lot greater tragedy than any delay that *might* be attributable to the developer working to satisfy another audience.

Agreed?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 1239
RE: When? - 6/13/2009 12:14:01 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Start a new thread for the discussion on mode of play. I will delete any more posts on the topic of mode of play that appear in this thread. This is your only warning.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 1240
RE: When? - 6/13/2009 7:43:10 AM   
BallyJ

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 5/25/2008
Status: offline 		Thank you very much

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1241
RE: When? - 6/13/2009 3:48:55 PM   
JonBrave

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 8/6/2006
Status: offline 		I go away for 2 weeks, and this is the news I come back to....

I was going to post my own long reply, but take Shannon's point about cutting this thread, so will try to stick to the topic (as I understand it).

For my 2 cents, I wouild like to say that I am disappointed that a deadline I thought would be met looks like nowhere near. I had also not thought the AIO final coding had so much to go. One poster (not unreasonably) suggested doubling time estimate and then moving it to next "level", so a "4 month" delay would then equate to 8 years.... I don't mean to be rude/antagonistic, but I do work as a developer, and we expect to give and be held to better release date estimates.

(in reply to BallyJ)
Post #: 1242
RE: When? - 6/13/2009 4:16:01 PM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JonBrave

I go away for 2 weeks, and this is the news I come back to....

I was going to post my own long reply, but take Shannon's point about cutting this thread, so will try to stick to the topic (as I understand it).

For my 2 cents, I wouild like to say that I am disappointed that a deadline I thought would be met looks like nowhere near. I had also not thought the AIO final coding had so much to go. One poster (not unreasonably) suggested doubling time estimate and then moving it to next "level", so a "4 month" delay would then equate to 8 years.... I don't mean to be rude/antagonistic, but I do work as a developer, and we expect to give and be held to better release date estimates.


I understand disappointment in release dates. However for way too long the customer has held the financial burden of release dates. Atari holds well to release dates even though their software is usually the worst in the industry. Microsoft too, although theirs is also buggy at best on initial release. Game companies, way too many to list. They stick to a release on time and expect the paying customer to be a beta tester. In some cases it should be called alpha testing. You stick to a release date and I'll stick to quality.

_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

(in reply to JonBrave)
Post #: 1243
RE: When? - 6/13/2009 4:39:28 PM   
JonBrave

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 8/6/2006
Status: offline 		I just found this post at the start of the forum. It's dated 5/19/2005:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

But to answer the question directly, we have MWIF scheduled for release as a download in the spring of 2006.

There are some who say that degree of optimism just proves I am out of my mind. Actually, I am shooting for early spring 2006, but even I concede that depends on a whole lot of things not going wrong.


Credit to Matrix/Steve/Shannon for not removing it. And maybe it's not very tactful of me to requote it. Truly I don't want/mean to be rude or impolite. But it gets frustrating keep coming back here.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1244
RE: When? - 6/13/2009 5:49:25 PM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		I understand you do not mean to be impolite. The reality is the game has slipped several times and optimism has been very high. However many of us believe in quality and are tired of being victimized by poor games and software. I've probably said this more times tham I care to admit and it does sound old and tired. The game will be ready when it is ready. However, please note Matrix's release date for the game and the Fan Site converge on the same time frame. I doubt they would release copyright materials for my use on that site if it were to be severly delayed as they do not control personal articles, opinions, and editorials there.

_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

(in reply to JonBrave)
Post #: 1245
RE: When? - 6/13/2009 7:45:39 PM   
JonBrave

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 8/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562
However, please note Matrix's release date for the game .......


OK, so what is Matrix's release date for the game, and where does it say so, please?

(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 1246
RE: When? - 6/13/2009 8:57:48 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		Why not be a tad more tactical regarding release date?

"We are hoping to release WIF sometime in 2009, this is however a tentative date that may be adjusted."

such an estimate can be given once each quarter and when the project clearly is getting closer to completion it will be possible to say thay we're aiming for release in e.g. 4th quarter of 2009 - but again a tentative date.


_____________________________



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(in reply to JonBrave)
Post #: 1247
RE: When? - 6/14/2009 12:54:39 AM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		very sad that threads got so very far off topic.  What is the latest intel on when this will be released?

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 1248
RE: When? - 6/14/2009 1:32:35 AM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		Steve posts monthly updates on or around the 1st of each month

excerpt from post 1025 this thread (his last update)
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Project Management
Too many bugs and too many other tasks remain to meet the planned July release date of MWIF product 1. I expect to be finished by the end of September, but Matrix Games needs a few weeks after I submit the finalized code to package the game for distribution. Also, publication has to be scheduled into all their other projects. At the end of this post is a summary of the tasks that remain for me to do.



_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1249
RE: When? - 6/14/2009 10:51:32 AM   
AbeSimpson


Posts: 151
Joined: 6/23/2008
Status: offline 		Oh nooo! Not end of September!! In October there is the Spiel 2009 fair  at Essen.
All my savings will be spent to buy new boardgames. 
A better date for release is December because I could (hopefully) save enough
money for MWiF and I can tell my wife its a Christmas present (for me )...

(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 1250
RE: When? - 6/14/2009 9:13:22 PM   
Sewerlobster


Posts: 330
Joined: 5/7/2007
From: Reading, Pa. USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson
Oh nooo! Not end of September!! In October there is the Spiel 2009 fair  at Essen.
All my savings will be spent to buy new boardgames. 
A better date for release is December because I could (hopefully) save enough
money for MWiF and I can tell my wife its a Christmas present (for me )...

Probably putting you in the smallest minority here. Those wishing for a release delay.

(in reply to AbeSimpson)
Post #: 1251
RE: When? - 6/14/2009 9:55:14 PM   
AbeSimpson


Posts: 151
Joined: 6/23/2008
Status: offline 		Interesting point of view, isn´t it?

(in reply to Sewerlobster)
Post #: 1252
RE: When? - 6/14/2009 10:59:19 PM   
TemKarl


Posts: 43
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline 		JonBrave

quote:

I just found this post at the start of the forum. It's dated 5/19/2005:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
But to answer the question directly, we have MWIF scheduled for release as a download in the spring of 2006.


In defense of Steve (not that he needs it really), I feel his pain on this issue.

Development on "WiE" started in March '04, and I set an initial public release date of "December '05". By mid '05 it was obvious the original target had been wildly optimistic and I revised the schedule to "late '07". In mid-'07 a Demo was posted, and I contacted a number of press outlets to advise that "Early '08" was now the target. Throughout '08 final testing and documentation took far longer than expected and I simply stopped giving out a date (other than "soon as possible"). We shipped on march 30, '09 - almost exactly 5 years after the project began, and 3 and a half years later than the first publicly announced date.

If Steve, by some coincidence, also happens to run 3 and half years over his initial public date, he'll release in "Autumn '09" - which is roughly his current estimate. I'm anxiously awaiting late '09!

(in reply to JonBrave)
Post #: 1253
RE: When? - 6/15/2009 2:05:36 AM   
BallyJ

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 5/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson

Oh nooo! Not end of September!! In October there is the Spiel 2009 fair  at Essen.
All my savings will be spent to buy new boardgames. 
A better date for release is December because I could (hopefully) save enough
money for MWiF and I can tell my wife its a Christmas present (for me )...


My thought exactly Abe.December 1st looks good.

(in reply to AbeSimpson)
Post #: 1254
RE: When? - 6/15/2009 5:51:14 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cwie
If Steve, by some coincidence, also happens to run 3 and half years over his initial public date, he'll release in "Autumn '09" - which is roughly his current estimate. I'm anxiously awaiting late '09!

Well, and this highlights something that Erik Rutins, among others, has confronted (and been forthcoming enough to discuss, however briefly, in these forums) concerning "ports" of cardboard-and-paper wargames into computer versions.

Several years ago, there seemed to be a tacitly accepted notion that such conversions were a piece of cake. Turns out, they are as big a conquest as Monte Cassino - or even bigger.

I think the problem to be that taking the simple meaning of a short paragraph of wargame rules and turning them into working software routines - then integrating them with hundreds, if not thousands, of others - has turned out to be not just a can of worms, but an entire 55-gallon drum of snakes. Then, to superimpose a credible AI on that? You've got to be kidding.

Steve is laboring magnificently. I extend my congratulations - and condolences - to the likes of Marashall Ellis (of EiA fame - or notoriety, depending on how you see it). I respect CWiE, although, as noted, the market is limited due to the lack of an AI opponent.

We gotta be careful, men, lest no such undertakings ever be undertaken again (sorry, my best friend is an undertaker, so I try to play up his profession whenever I can). Let 'em be. Wait for the product. Encourage by your kind forbearance the efforts of other aspiring developers to "electronicize" some of those great old titles we love (I'd sure like to see such an effort with some of the old AH "classics," like Tactics II, Afrika Korps, Waterloo, or even Air Assault on Crete/Invasion of Malta).

Teaches me more respect for some of those early attempts, like AH's run at Third Reich, which I still have and fool around with from time to time (although, admittedly, CoS-FE is way better from the ground up - for me).

I'm waitin'. I'm buyin'.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to TemKarl)
Post #: 1255
RE: When? - 6/15/2009 10:15:15 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		I must say I didn't think that after setting a close date, like July, 27th, there would be substantial additional delays, but I know Steve would like to end ASAP, because it's then when he will get ( most of?) his money. If he has not done yet it is because he cannot (full stop).

That said, after the serious morale hit, I want to thank Steve for caring about the quality of the game. The really important matter is that the game works well and with the minimum and smaller possible bugs, I prefer a completely ready game than an unended one that will be patched for years.

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 1256
RE: When? - 6/16/2009 2:04:54 AM   
coregames


Posts: 470
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
Then, to superimpose a credible AI on that? You've got to be kidding.


In my opinion, the quality of the AI at first is not going to be the measure of the eventual success of this game. I may be mistaken, and Steve can correct me if I'm wrong, but his investment in this project has been momentous, and his eye has always been on the ball of the AIO. Perhaps the rudimentary AI will at first not be impressive, but because of the groundwork laid for the general structure of it (especially the modability), subsequent patches will substantially increase the strength of the the computer's play. In this way, the target market may start with hardened WiF fans, but will grow along with the capabilities of the AIO. This process, begun by dedicated beta testers before release, will continue with feedback from all of us based on our experiences with the initial product and subsequent updates.

This is not a bad thing. Players new to WiF may find the initial AI to be a sufficient challenge to help them learn the fundamentals of the game, and their play can improve commensurately with the strength of the AIO. I personally will be more than impressed if the initial release plays a passable Barbarossa or Guadal Canal. Even these relatively simple scenarios offer human players a rich universe of possibilities to demonstrate their skill and creativity. I do hope (for Matrix's and Steve's sakes, as well as for all of ours) that as feedback from the initial versions flows in from the public, the game acquires well-rounded techniques to handle a wide range of styles from players, techniques it must have if it is to play the longer scenarios and not become vulnerable to certain approaches.

So (still only my opinion), it is not that Steve is programming a strong computer opponent, but rather, that he is programming an easily tailored computer opponent with enough diversity of strategic and tactical possibilities so that its potential to be made stronger is impressive. With this in mind I await, patient and confident that MWiF will emerge eventually with all the diverse features we have clamored for, and that it will appeal to an increasingly wide market of WWII enthusiasts.

< Message edited by coregames -- 6/16/2009 2:07:42 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 1257
RE: When? - 6/16/2009 11:36:49 AM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline 		All this over a couple months delay...

Ya gotta be kidding me...

Ray (alias Lava)

(in reply to coregames)
Post #: 1258
RE: When? - 6/16/2009 8:03:23 PM   
CarnivalBizarre

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 6/16/2009
Status: offline 		Hearts of iron 3 will soon keep me happy for another year or so, so take your time and do it well :)

(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 1259
RE: When? - 6/17/2009 6:45:09 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		Yeah, and you cannot discard a new release of the Sims or Super Mario Bros.

(in reply to CarnivalBizarre)
Post #: 1260
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