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Amphibious Landings - 7/29/2009 2:52:46 PM   
steel god

 

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I have found myself in a situation which I believe I know the answer to, but would like confirmation of the fact, and then if I'm correct, wold love to known why the rules were instituted that way.

Alright, here's the situation:

US Fleet with forces embarked fights a naval action in Mouth of the Mississippi and wins, CSA fleet retreats to Lower Mississppi River.

US Fleet disembarks a Corps into Lower Miss River and wins battle clearing out province.

US Corps begins siege against CSA Fort in Lower Miss River.

US Corps wins siege and destroys fort, captures empty New Orleans.

At this point the city of New Orleans is blue, but the province is still red, I assumed because the CSA Navy was still there. Next turn the CSA Navy vacates the river province, and my Corps is alone in it, but it's still a red province.

Since I'm curious why that is I search the rule book and it states that to control a province you must first control one adjacent to it.

So I think that answers why I don't control the Lower Miss River, but doesn't that make Amphibious landings by the Union little more than raids where I can capture cities but can't do anything with them, and will always bee the "attacker" in any counter attacks? I assume the designers didn't want to make landings more powerful than they were historically, but don't those rules make them even less so? I mean, the Mississippi river can't be efficiently conquered just from the North. The Union attacked up and down the river, meeting in Vicksburg. But if you can't gain control of the river provinces because they're not adjacent to another province you are really just being a nuisance, no?

I'm guessing that allowing control of non-adjacent provinces would make the landings too powerful a tool, but this other method seems too powerful in the other direction as it eliminates the need to even defend against the landings for the most part.
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RE: Amphibious Landings - 7/29/2009 3:55:14 PM   
Randomizer


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I look at it more as depriving the South of their largest city rather than gaining a foothold for a Second Front.  Would submit however that in the actual event none of the Union amphibious operations actually advanced and remained far beyond the coast including the naval push up the Mississippi that captured (and subsequently lost) Baton Rouge, the Meridian campaign and the ultimately unsuccessful sortie to Galveston.

Agree completely that having to act as attacker when defending cities taken this way seems wrong as is the inability to use ironclads as siege artillery for coastal and riverine operations.

It's difficult to see how the designers could have compromised though, if the aim was to prevent D-Day style invasions (something that would have been contrary to contemporary doctrine and a logistical nightmare), they certainly succeeded but doing so introduces the other unpleasent effects that you noted.

The AI seems to maintain it's garrisons in coastal cities and forts and if I were to attempt a PBEM I would insist on reasonable house rules for garrisons on both sides (and impose them on myself when playing against the computer).

I consider that the FoF naval system to be the weakest aspect of the game but have no issues with the apperant intention to prevent the Union from from conducting an Inchon type operation in 1863.

Best Regards

(in reply to steel god)
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RE: Amphibious Landings - 7/30/2009 2:08:49 PM   
steel god

 

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Having thought about this for a few days I have to agree with your assessment. If the Union could can control of provinces in a Naval Landing the CSA position would simply be untenable. Simply taking New Orleans is damage enough to their war effort, with the loss of it's replacements and production, and their need to divert forces to at least box in, if not eliminate the landing force. While this may be a little unhistorical, allowing control of the provinces would create a situation that would be ripe for abuse by a crafty Union player.

(in reply to Randomizer)
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RE: Amphibious Landings - 7/30/2009 2:27:31 PM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: steel god

Having thought about this for a few days I have to agree with your assessment. If the Union could can control of provinces in a Naval Landing the CSA position would simply be untenable. Simply taking New Orleans is damage enough to their war effort, with the loss of it's replacements and production, and their need to divert forces to at least box in, if not eliminate the landing force. While this may be a little unhistorical, allowing control of the provinces would create a situation that would be ripe for abuse by a crafty Union player.


Early on I held the same position that you do. I also came to the same conclusion. Wargames are a blend of compromises. The good ones are perched on a fine edge of what was, what could have been and what makes the game play well.

It's interesting to watch another veteran player come to FoF and make some of the same conclusions as I made. And for the same reasons. While I don't agree with all that FoF does or all the compromises I think overall it does a very credible job.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to steel god)
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RE: Amphibious Landings - 2/25/2010 11:47:22 PM   
Larry Reese

 

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I know I'm a relative newbie here, but I tend to disagree, and here is why.  The entire peninsular campaign was transported and supplied from the sea.  As noted above, not only was this a logistical nightmare, but it was an incredible feat of logistics in my opinion given the state of technology and doctrine.  I think you should be able to control provinces taken from the sea.  NOW, in order to combat the potential abuse of such things (and conform to the actual historical facts): if the province is defended, the invaders should attack at a huge disadvantage (the Peninsular campaign came ashore unopposed, essentially, at Fort Monroe).  If not, it should be taken and change side.  This promotes the use of what was actually done in the Civil War, scattering small forces along the coastal provinces to basically act as trip wires for attempts at invasion.  I would also limit the size of any force that can come ashore in any one turn (in the case of the Peninsular campaign the initial embarkation included 100,000 soldiers, 15,000 horses, 1,100 wagons, and 44 batteries of artillery. John Tucker, the Assistant Secretary of War, chartered 113 steamers, 188 schooners, and 88 barges to move McClellan's army from northern Virginia down the Potomac River and the Chesapeake Bay to Fortress Monroe.)  These limitations, along with the dreaded "sea supply" limitations and lack of hospital access for maintenance of disposition, would likely limit the extent of such excursions.  But, if the Union wanted to throw men, money, supplies, and ships at this type of invasion, the Confederates should have to be forced to respond - just as they were forced to respond to the Peninsular advance - or risk losing the entire province. 

I think the doctrinal argument is less valid.  There was no doctrine for landings in the army anyway, despite the landing in the Mexican War of 10,000 men at Veracruz, yet this was still done for the Peninsula campaign.  Nor was their doctrine on the use of iron clads in general or turreted one in particular, yet they were still developed.  But space prohibits a full discussion of this topic.

Of course I have found other aspects of the naval/riverine format in FoF disappointing as well, some of which I have mentioned here.  I guess this falls into that bucket.  In particular, the lack of gunboats being able to control rivers and participate in combat in river provinces is disappointing to me.  The key factor they played in some battles is demonstrated by the key role, at least according to Confederate commanders and diarists, that the union gunboats played halting further attacks on the Union flank at Shiloh.  Anyway, suffice to say I think its flawed a bit.  It may be an artifiact of the fact that the underlying engine in FoF was designed initially for another game. 

Just my rambling.

LR

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 5
RE: Amphibious Landings - 2/26/2010 1:04:31 AM   
Mad Russian


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At present there is no requirement for supply ships. A single ship can supply 20 men as easily as it can 20,000. Tie the supply from the sea to a transport requirement and that would help a lot.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Larry Reese)
Post #: 6
RE: Amphibious Landings - 2/26/2010 3:05:42 AM   
Randomizer


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Larry, I would suggest that your example of the Peninsula Campaign solidly reinforces my main point, like all Union amphibious operations it was limited in scope and ultimately unsuccessful.  The scale of the thing is irrelevant, whether large or small decisively projecting land forces into hostile territory saw only local success and never resulted in a lasting strategic penetration of the South.

As for dismissing doctrine, had the USA had an effective amphibious logistics doctrine Scott's march from Vera Cruz might not have seen him cutting his supply line and marching to Mexico City entirely removed from support.  That it was ultimately successful should not disguise the enormous risks and potential for disaster that this decision entailed at the time.  It worked in 1847 but since the senior officers on both sides of the Civil War were steeped in the techniques of Mexico means that any such expeditions in their war were likely to come to grief since the element of surprise would probably be absent.

But I agree that overall, FoF's naval game has serious flaws.

Cheers

(in reply to Mad Russian)
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RE: Amphibious Landings - 2/27/2010 10:01:42 PM   
Larry Reese

 

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Hey there Random, Paul,   I understand your point, but think it can be interpreted differently.  The peninsular campaign failed because of fighting on land, far removed from the beaches/ports that was on the scale of any other land fighting in the civil war.  The Union kept a truly massive force supplied only by sea (they also imported several locomotives and rolling stock to reactivate the railways they captured and improve the efficiency of supply).  They lost a land battle and elected to eventually evacuate by sea for that reason, not because they were inherently in trouble with supply or other complications from being inserted and supported by SLOC.  This, to me, stands for the fact that the major southern response that was required by the landing (this was the event that caused the ANV to be formed) was successful in defeating the union forces in regular combat, not an invalidation of large scale psuedo-amphibious landings (I use this term because as noted the Union did not land versus an opposing force, though it could be argued that Magruder himself obviated this by burning the city and high tailing it).  Simply because they eventually evacuated after a succession of land battles (some victorious some not, and those not due to the same tactical problems that plagued the north in other land engagements) does not prove the amphibious attack/movement/support theory in the civil war is invalid, only that a military reverse was suffered just as had been suffered elsewhere by completely land-moved and -supported forces.  Had the Union simply taken the entire peninsula (which they did) and entrenched, forcing Lee to attack, rather than engage in a battle of maneuver, or been lead more competently, things might have been very different.  What i'm saying is, the fact they didn't capture Richmond because of a lost land battle that had nothing to do with their waterborne arrival or supply can’t invalidate that process.  In fact, the Union successfully operated a truly huge force more than 50 miles inland for two months.  That’s a successful amphibious operation in my book; that the resultant operations failed does not effect the success of the amphib ops (Gallipoli for example was a clear failure of amphibious operations, as Normandy would have been had it been defeated on the beaches).  If they’d stalled at the beaches, or been beaten because of lack of supply, that would be entirely different; but they were not.  As the game system stands now, the entire historical peninsular campaign cannot be waged and I find this a pretty significant failing of the game system.  There are several very good West Point and Command and Staff College studies of this campaign that back this up.  The fact it was amphibious had no impact on the fighting and in fact clearly proved that major armies could be successfully supplied across very rudimentary port and beach facilities given proper preparation and scope of authority.   Oh, and I noticed I did not say what I thought the limits should be on landings per turn.  Since our forces in FoF do not take into account logistical, medical and administrative tails, I would limit landings in one turn to 50,000 men in the game.  Still a considerable number, but manageable I think.   On Veracruz, I think Scott’s move to cut free from his supply base (which was adequately supplied) is more about manpower and freedom of maneuver than anything to do with amphibious operations.  Had he had more men, I’m sure Scott would have left conventional garrisons rather than take that risk.  In fact, this move had a particular impact on Grant, who served as a quartermaster in one of Scott’s units.  He would later cut loose from a supply base as well, in land operations (and of course, that’s the definition of what Sherman did still later – it should also be recalled that at its peak, the peninsular forces of the Union encompassed more than 15 times Scott’s force).   Scott's move was bold and audacious. It also was not without its critics. Upon learning of Scott's decision, the Duke of Wellington—the great victor over Napoleon at Waterloo in 1815, who had been following the campaign closely—declared, "Scott is lost! He has been carried away by success! He can't take the city [Mexico City], and he can't fall back on his base."   Scott, however, would prove the skeptics wrong. He developed an effective system of local supply that included a prohibition against forced requisitions and an insistence on purchasing supplies from the locals. By ridding himself of the requirement to secure his lines of communication with garrisons in his rear, Scott was able to increase his force to some 14,000 men from ~5,500. This greater strength and his freedom from a fixed line of supply allowed Scott to fight the war of maneuver that he desired.   Scott's lead elements departed Puebla on 7 August. By 18 August, it appeared that the Duke of Wellington might be right after all. Scott's situation had become serious, if not desperate. Colonel Ethan Hitchcock wrote, "We have no forage for our horses; our hard bread is getting musty; we have four days' rations for the army and some beef on hoof." Edmund Kirby Smith had similar concerns: "Mexico must fall or we must all find a grave between this and the city." Scott's bold move of cutting loose from his line of supply would require a quick victory to eliminate the increasing danger to his army.   Scott got his victory at Contreras on 19 August and Churubusco on 20 August. With these two successes, Scott had crossed the entire Valley of Mexico. Russell F. Weigley concludes, in The American Way of War, "Scott was a bold strategist. His march from Vera Cruz into the interior was one of the most daring movements of American military history." Even the Duke of Wellington reversed himself, declaring Scott to be "the greatest living soldier" and urging young English officers to study the campaign as one "unsurpassed in military annals."   As a young lieutenant, Ulysses Grant was a participant in Scott's great Mexican campaign. Serving as a quartermaster and commissary attached to Brigadier General William Worth's division, Grant describes in his Memoirs at least one instance in which he marched with a large wagon train to procure forage. The Mexican War taught Grant that an army could cut loose from its line of supply and survive.  It was a lesson that Grant, as a major general in the Union Army, remembered in his Vicksburg campaign. Grant's line of supply for his advance into Mississippi was the Mississippi Central Railroad, originating in Grand Junction, Tennessee. Maintaining the railroad cost the Union Army troops, who were needed both to guard and repair it. It was the same problem Scott had faced in Mexico.   On 12 December 1862, Lieutenant General John Pemberton, the Confederate commander opposing Grant, ordered Major General Earl Van Dorn to take command of all the cavalry in the vicinity of Grenada, Mississippi, launch a sweep around Grant's left flank, destroy the Union depot at Holly Springs, Mississippi, and wreck as much of the Mississippi Central and the parallel Memphis and Charleston Railroad as he could. On 18 December, Van Dorn and 3,500 cavalrymen left Grenada, and on 20 December they surprised the weaker Union force at Holly Springs and destroyed an estimated $500,000 worth of supplies there. Van Dorn then proceeded north, destroying as much of the railroad as he could before returning to Grenada on 28 December.  Simultaneously, a twin raid was conducted by Lieutenant General Nathan Bedford Forrest against the important rail junction at Jackson, Tennessee, on 20 December. The two raids left Grant in serious danger. As Timothy Donovan writes in The American Civil War—   "To attempt to measure the amount of influence of the two cavalry raids on the subsequent decision by Grant to abandon his overland approach can only lead to a subjective estimate at best . . . [Nonetheless], the raids of Van Dorn and Forrest displayed cavalry in a classic example of the excellent use of a small, highly mobile unit in an economy of force role.  Indeed, Pemberton's superior, General Joseph E. Johnston, came to place his main reliance in defeating Grant on cavalry raids against the vulnerable rail communications in western Tennessee. The Confederate raiders presented Grant with the same threat to a vulnerable line of supply that Mexican guerrillas had presented to Scott."
  On 3 May 1863, Grant learned that Major General Nathaniel P. Banks would be delayed in joining him. In his Memoirs, Grant writes, "Up to this time my intention had been to secure Grand Gulf, as a base of supplies, detach [Major General John] McClernand's corps to Banks and cooperate with him in the reduction of Port Hudson." With the delay of Banks, Grant instead "determined to move independently of Banks, cut loose from my base, destroy the rebel force in rear of Vicksburg or invest or capture the city."   Grant's decision at Vicksburg shared several things in common with Scott's decision in Mexico. First of all, it was daring and subject to criticism. Recognizing this, Grant purposely delayed notifying the Union Army General in Chief, Major General Henry W. Halleck, until it was too late to stop it because he "knew well that Halleck's caution would lead him to disprove of this course." Even Grant's friend, Brigadier General William T. Sherman, wrote Grant to advise him "of the impossibility of supplying our army over a single road."  Grant's and Scott's operations both involved use of forage. To Sherman's protestations, Grant replied—       I do not calculate upon the possibility of supplying the army with full rations from Grand Gulf. I know it will be impossible without constructing additional roads. What I do expect is to get up what rations of hard bread, coffee, and salt we can, and make the country furnish the balance.   In his Memoirs, Grant wrote, "We started from Bruinsburg [Mississippi] with an average of about two days' rations, and received no more from our supplies for some days; abundance was found in the meantime."  Time was also a critical factor in both campaigns. Even with the abundant forage Grant expected to find, he knew he could not afford any long halts that would exhaust available local supplies. He would have to keep his army moving. To this end, he wrote Sherman, "I believe we could be in Vicksburg in seven days."  Grant's decision to cut his line of supply, like Scott's, also facilitated maneuver. Grant was able to position his army between Pemberton at Vicksburg and Johnston in Jackson. Through the use of interior lines, Grant gained the opportunity of "threatening both or striking at either." So he struck at both, capturing Jackson on 14 May and then defeating Pemberton at Champion's Hill (between Jackson and Vicksburg) on 16 May. Pemberton then withdrew into Vicksburg, and on 18 May Grant's siege of the city began.   The final point Scott's and Grant's campaigns had in common is that both were successful.  Russell Weigley writes that Grant considered his decision to cut loose from his line of supply to be the most important innovation in the Vicksburg Campaign.  While Pemberton was preoccupied with trying to cut Grant's nonexistent line of communications, Vicksburg fell to Grant's siege.  Grant usually is thought of as the Federal commander who eventually defeated the great Robert E. Lee in Virginia. His service as a quartermaster in Mexico is at best a footnote to his career, but it was through that experience that Grant learned a valuable logistics lesson. Scott had shown him that, under certain conditions, an army could cut loose from its line of supply, survive, and win. Putting his quartermaster experience to good effect, Grant replicated that strategy outside of Vicksburg in 1862 and 1863.  In the case of the peninsula, there was no cutting loose from the base of supply.  The federal army in the peninsula was exquisitely supplied, a fact much lamented by the Confederates.  This supply issue here is quite different than that of Veracruz (or Vicksburg).  It is apples to oranges.  But we're each entitled to our opinions.
  On another point I think that FoF has a problem with scale, preventing things like this from being effective.  I personally feel provinces should be smaller and much more numerous.  But I’ll get off my soap box.
Later,
LR
 

(in reply to Randomizer)
Post #: 8
RE: Amphibious Landings - 3/10/2010 4:42:14 PM   
steel god

 

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I have successfully cut myself from a hard supply line and advanced south, but only in 1864 when my Union Armies are on a quality parity with the south, and my economy afforded me the luxury of keeping all armies on high priority so that enough supply got through anyway. Otherwise being out of supply range and out of hospital range is a quick recipe for disaster, doubly so for the Southern Forces who can rarely come above low priority supply.

(in reply to Larry Reese)
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