Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: obermeister

Here's an interesting rules as written / as coded question. I'm not sure that the rules are real specific about what happens in this case.

1. Germany and Japan are at war with the Commonwealth. Netherlands are neutral.

2. Germany declares war on the Netherlands. Commonwealth takes control (aligns) the Netherlands.

Does the US get to roll only for the entry effect of Germany declaring war? Or does this also count as a Japanese declaration of war? More critically, does the US get an extra chit each turn from Japan being at war with the Netherlands?

quote:

ORIGINAL: obermeister

Does it strike you as odd that Japan could avoid a massive US entry hit in this way?

Especially consider what would happen if Japan had DCW'd the Commonwealth if the Netherlands had been aligned PRIOR to that point. According to 9.2 in RAW: "a declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country that major power has aligned", so there would be a US entry effect for Netherlands in that case.

So if 1. Germany DCW Netherlands, 2. Japan DCW Commonwealth, there is a US Entry for both commmonwealth and Netherlands for Japan. But if 1 and 2 are reversed then there is only US entry for Commonwealth and not Netherlands.

That doesn't seem broken to you?

quote:

Original: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

20, 31 & 32 Major Power declares war on neutral minor - roll once for each major power declaring war on this minor this impulse.

Your major powers can declare war on major powers from the other side or on unaligned minor countries.

You can’t declare war on
• any major powers or minor countries on your side; or
• a country you are already at war with; or
• a minor country that is already controlled by a major power on the other side. However, a declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country aligned to that major power.


The Netherlands East Indies is a minor country consisting of all the 1939 NEI-controlled hexes in the Bay of Bengal, Bismark Sea, East Indian Ocean, South China Sea and Timor Sea. Its capital is Batavia.

quote:

Original: wifchart.pdf US ENTRY ACTIONS

20. Axis declares war on 7:
Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country 5 (12)
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland 5 (8)
Other minor or Vichy France 5 (3)

33. Japan declares war on the CW, France or Netherlands (Ja) 3 & 5 (28)

3. The USA also picks 1 extra chit a turn for each action (except conquests by surrender). It must go into the marked entry pool.
5. Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search.
7. Place chit in Ja pool if Japan declares war, the Ge/It pool otherwise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

My question is:

If the Japanese player had not DOWed the CW.

Could the Japanese player DOW the unaligned minor country the NEI (#20 die roll 3) without DOWing the unaligned minor country the Netherlands (#33 die roll 28)?

quote:

ORIGINAL: obermeister

I'm just reading the rule as it is written. If a "declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country that major power has aligned", I'm not seeing anything in there that says there wouldn't be a US entry effect for those DoW's on those minors.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obermeister

Ok, thanks for clearing that up.  What about the following situation:

1.  France has not been vichied and is at war with Germany. 
2   Germany DCW Netherlands, France takes control of Netherlands. 
3.  Germany conquers Netherlands (but not NEI) and Vichies France.

At this point NEI would either go Vichy or Free France, depending on the Vichy variant you are playing with.  Say for the sake of argument that it goes Vichy.

What are Japan's options regarding NEI at this point?  There is an option for Japan occupying Vichy-controlled French Indochina or Vichy Madagascar.  Would Japan need to declare war on Vichy France to take control of NEI?

quote:

ORIGINAL: obermeister

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. What about the following situation:

1. France has not been vichied and is at war with Germany.
2 Germany DCW Netherlands, France takes control of Netherlands.
3. Germany conquers Netherlands (but not NEI) and Vichies France.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

It would, but it can't, as you can't declare war on powers on your own side.

The real question is, what happens to the NEI oil? Does anyone (Japan/CW) get any, and if so, can Japan get cut off by the embargo?

quote:

ORIGINAL: obermeister
What are Japan's options regarding NEI at this point? 

quote:

There is an option for Japan occupying Vichy-controlled French Indochina or Vichy Madagascar. 

quote:

Would Japan need to declare war on Vichy France to take control of NEI?

quote:

They still receive the oil as long as the US don't embargoe it and they are not at war with the Netherlands or the CW. See 5.1.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obermeister

quote:

They still receive the oil as long as the US don't embargoe it and they are not at war with the Netherlands or the CW. See 5.1.

Ok, that was going to be my next question: a vichy-controlled NEI is still subject to the US oil embargo. Wow. That's very interesting. So, post embargo Japan isn't going to see a drop of NEI oil until vichy gets collapsed.

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Wiffe-RAW-7.0.pdf

All other French territories and minor countries may be aligned with either Vichy France or Free France.

17.2 Determine control

Roll a die for each of the other administration groups to determine who controls it. A group becomes controlled by the (Free) French player if the roll is within the range shown on this chart. Otherwise, it remains controlled by Vichy France:

All other territories & minors 9–10

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Wiffe-RAW-7.0.pdf

13. Embargo on strategic materials - The US only convoys 3 resources to Japan per turn instead of 4. This takes effect from this step. Two of the resources must still be oil resources. Japan no longer needs to supply the USA with a build point.

23. Freeze Japanese assets - This entry option can only be chosen if you have already chosen entry option 13. The US only needs to supply Japan with 2 resources a turn in this and later turns. Both must be oil resources.

31. Oil embargo - This entry option can only be chosen if you have already chosen entry option 23. Japan no longer receives any resources from the US or from the Netherlands East Indies. You need no longer maintain a convoy chain to Japan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

while this is one of those semi-interesting theoretical WiF questions - "what happens if we crash rule A into rule B?", and the computer has to be able to handle those, I think it is of interest _only_ on the theoretical and computer coding angles, because this would be extremely stupid Allied play. Steve's original suggestion of aligning the Netherlands to France is more applicable to Free France, and this does have some good upsides in those games where Free France has been created before Germany is at war with the Netherlands. I type this more for the observers who are wondering what kind of crazy talk is this, a Vichy Netherlands East Indies? It is theoretically possible in the rules, but that doesn't mean you will ever see it happen playing against rational opponents.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

the CW also loses ten CPs, a TRS, miscellaneous light SCS, and a nice little submarine all just for the thrill of doing something radical, 60% of the time. This naval force will also largely be immobilized once Germany crosses the Belgian border until Germany takes Paris, and would never stack with the CW, move CW units, nor base in a CW territory; and you will never know Germany's Vichy policy at the time of Netherlands DoW. Have never seen this happen and don't really expect to but if an Allied opponent wants to make the game different on a lark, I'd suggest they go for it.

for me, skipping a German DoW until concurrent with the Japanese one and then going for a higher risk strategy in Belgium gives you the high reward of the CW economic empire being more tightly stretched for a while. but then I also don't like a Japanese DoW on the CW before the USA because you will regret that with each US O-Chit raining down on you later.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Extraneous: You are correct in that a neutral Netherlands must halt shipping oil to Japan.

- Third, there is an explicit rules citation indicating when Vichy France may lend resources & build points to other major powers (or as someone else put it, rule A crashes into Rule B and we have to sort out the wreck) which could override the embargo rule (since active major powers are not restricted the way neutral minor powers are).

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Wiffe-RAW-7.0.pdf

Its progress towards war is governed by the number of markers it has in 4 pools, the US entry pools and the US tension pools. By manipulating the markers in these pools, the US will be able to go to war with the Axis powers once it has judiciously applied pressure to control war-like Axis tendencies.
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
Actually only major powers may give/trade/lend resources and/or build points to one another.



Minor powers that are aligned or have been DOWed are controlled by a major power. This includes setup, movement, activity limits, resources, and etc.



Normally when a controlling major power is conquered the minor powers under its control would just revert to their neutral status.