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RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 9:25:19 PM   
lavisj

 

Posts: 89
Joined: 10/17/2006
Status: offline 		With Dutch Guyana and NEI being in different administrative groups, I think the only thing that matter is the administrativ group of the new Dutch home country as the other minor is aligned to the ducth home country and will therefore go the same way as its controlling minor.
So if Dutch Guyana is in the new home country then you only roll for the "other" administration group.
If NEI is the home country you roll for "Asian" or "Pacific" I forget on which side of the map border it is.

But really, Dutch Guyana only exists if playing America in Flame, not WIFFE.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 61
RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 9:46:51 PM   
paulderynck


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lavisj

With Dutch Guyana and NEI being in different administrative groups, I think the only thing that matter is the administrativ group of the new Dutch home country as the other minor is aligned to the ducth home country and will therefore go the same way as its controlling minor.
So if Dutch Guyana is in the new home country then you only roll for the "other" administration group.
If NEI is the home country you roll for "Asian" or "Pacific" I forget on which side of the map border it is.

But really, Dutch Guyana only exists if playing America in Flame, not WIFFE.

A good point, but in other discussions in the past, the relationship between an aligned country and its major power has been described as "transitive" - meaning its hexes are controlled by both itself and the major power. So if that major power splits as in Vichy and FF, there is at least an argument that the minor countries go with the corresponding new major.

Another way it could work is the Dutch home country goes to France when the Netherlands is conquered. This is another question for Harry, really. In that case does the Dutch home country government pull up stakes and run off with FF? If not, then NEI and Dutch Guyana could go FF but the entity of the Netherlands would still exist since neither of those minors is conquered.

There are more possibilities here then initially meet the eye.

Edit: There was a discussion awhile back on the Yahoo list that IIRC concluded that the minors aligned to the Netherlands (and Belgium) also get aligned to the Major Power that aligns the Netherlands (and Belgium) - otherwise the cooperation issues get even more horrid.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 8/2/2009 9:55:28 PM >

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to lavisj)
Post #: 62
RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 11:28:03 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		I would think you roll once for the current home country of the minor in question, and any other subsidiary minors aligned to it would follow the results of that die roll. To do it any other way would make this trainwreck probably cause other rules trainwrecks later on. Ditto for the minor's units....these _could_ end up due to player orders in any combination of Allied, Axis, Vichy or Free hexes at the time of Vichy creation (thankfully at least the AI will make sane alignment decisions to avoid these crazy situations). It might seem simple at first to allow some of the minor units on each French 'side' but I would think later it would create issues with the supply rules, not to mention what happens upon subsequent incomplete or complete conquest of their new home country, which force pool they go in; lots of fun on the unit questions too. The convoys would be the easiest because you could just use the controlling MP CPs per the original WiF style. I've been using the CoiF minor CP counters for a long time now, just to make the map more colorful, while ignoring any silly cooperation issues.

And all of this stuff would also have to work out correctly in practice for Belgium, Spain, and Portugal in addition to the Netherlands, so there is plenty for the beta-testers to check out here I would think. All of these would be incredibly rare amongst experienced players. But amongst new players, perhaps not. There are also those rare games where Germany ends up fighting on two fronts at completely non-historical times.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 63
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 12:03:02 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Mauretania, French Sudan, Senegal, French Guinea, Ivory Coast, Upper Volta, Togo & Dahomey and Niger Colony are separate minor countries.

Cameroons, Gabon, Middle Congo, Ubangi-Shari and Chad are treated as one minor country.

French Equatorial Africa and all the units of those countries are treated as being from that one minor country.

All the above would all be rolled for as one Administrative Group.

Why are they separated as minor countries?



quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

When you come to peace with every major power (i.e. you are neutral again), move all your reserve units that are either on the map or the production circle to the reserve pool. Remove all reserve units in your force pools from the game.



Yes, this is under “Calling out the reserves” but it is under “Declaring war” which includes Controlling and Aligning minor countries. It states what happens when a major power or minor country comes to peace with every major power. You become a neutral major power or minor country.


If either the Netherlands or the NEI has been conquered they remain a conquered minor country.


When Vichy is installed it starts as a neutral major power “The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it”.

Vichy is not at war, so if unconquered the Netherlands and/or NEI are and not at war they would not be controlled by Vichy they would be neutral minor countries.

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 64
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 12:19:51 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Mauretania, French Sudan, Senegal, French Guinea, Ivory Coast, Upper Volta, Togo & Dahomey and Niger Colony are separate minor countries.

Cameroons, Gabon, Middle Congo, Ubangi-Shari and Chad are treated as one minor country.

French Equatorial Africa and all the units of those countries are treated as being from that one minor country.

All the above would all be rolled for as one Administrative Group.

Why are they separated as minor countries?

Hard to say other than that's how Harry designed it. Which countries you play with is variable because you can choose to play without the Africa map and/or the full America map (versus the mini-map). The concept of Admin Groups is peculiar to the Vichy rules and perhaps was intended to be a catch-all for the variability of the maps being played with.

But if you play with all the maps you can certainly have a situation where these various minors get conquered or liberated one-by-one but are still divied up for Vichy purposes by Admin Group.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

When you come to peace with every major power (i.e. you are neutral again), move all your reserve units that are either on the map or the production circle to the reserve pool. Remove all reserve units in your force pools from the game.



Yes, this is under “Calling out the reserves” but it is under “Declaring war” which includes Controlling and Aligning minor countries. It states what happens when a major power or minor country comes to peace with every major power. You become a neutral major power or minor country.


If either the Netherlands or the NEI has been conquered they remain a conquered minor country.


When Vichy is installed it starts as a neutral major power “The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it”.

Vichy is not at war, so if unconquered the Netherlands and/or NEI are and not at war they would not be controlled by Vichy they would be neutral minor countries.

Interesting point of view, but nothing says alignments are terminated when countries are neutral. If they were then the French colonies that go Vichy might not be aligned anymore.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 65
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 7:23:01 AM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lavisj
But really, Dutch Guyana only exists if playing America in Flame, not WIFFE.

Wrong.
You can play WiF FE with the America maps.

And MWiF haveDutch Guyana all the time.

(in reply to lavisj)
Post #: 66
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 11:29:12 AM   
oscar72se

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Gothenburg Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: lavisj

With Dutch Guyana and NEI being in different administrative groups, I think the only thing that matter is the administrativ group of the new Dutch home country as the other minor is aligned to the ducth home country and will therefore go the same way as its controlling minor.
So if Dutch Guyana is in the new home country then you only roll for the "other" administration group.
If NEI is the home country you roll for "Asian" or "Pacific" I forget on which side of the map border it is.

But really, Dutch Guyana only exists if playing America in Flame, not WIFFE.

A good point, but in other discussions in the past, the relationship between an aligned country and its major power has been described as "transitive" - meaning its hexes are controlled by both itself and the major power. So if that major power splits as in Vichy and FF, there is at least an argument that the minor countries go with the corresponding new major.

Another way it could work is the Dutch home country goes to France when the Netherlands is conquered. This is another question for Harry, really. In that case does the Dutch home country government pull up stakes and run off with FF? If not, then NEI and Dutch Guyana could go FF but the entity of the Netherlands would still exist since neither of those minors is conquered.

There are more possibilities here then initially meet the eye.

Edit: There was a discussion awhile back on the Yahoo list that IIRC concluded that the minors aligned to the Netherlands (and Belgium) also get aligned to the Major Power that aligns the Netherlands (and Belgium) - otherwise the cooperation issues get even more horrid.

As interesting as this question might be, it is IMO completely theoretical. The CW should never pass upp the opportunity to control NEI. The oil is waaaay to important. As CW has first choice (London is closer to Amsterdam than Paris) France should never even get the chance

IIRC, someone wrote earlier in this thread that the Netherlands should align with France because this would force Japan to DoW France. IMO shis is not very wise since Japan is likely to DoW the entire world when they are ready for war against NEI.

Regards,
Oscar

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 67
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 1:57:00 PM   
sajbalk


Posts: 264
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From: Davenport, Iowa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

IIRC, someone wrote earlier in this thread that the Netherlands should align with France because this would force Japan to DoW France. IMO shis is not very wise since Japan is likely to DoW the entire world when they are ready for war against NEI.



This suggestion is in response to the scenario where France is Vichied (or incompletely conquered) and the Netherlands is then DOWed. Japan must DOW the CW to expand. Japan need not DOW France to expand at the start (esp. of it has occupied Vichy Indochina). This alignment forces another USE roll of 28(?) and gets the US another chit per turn.

France can better use the TRS and all the other naval units as it will have impulses with nothing to do otherwise. The CW has a lot of things to do; easier for France to sail that replacemnt convoy or bring a ship into the sea zone to activate.




_____________________________

Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to oscar72se)
Post #: 68
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 3:52:21 PM   
obermeister


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

As interesting as this question might be, it is IMO completely theoretical. The CW should never pass upp the opportunity to control NEI. The oil is waaaay to important. As CW has first choice (London is closer to Amsterdam than Paris) France should never even get the chance

IIRC, someone wrote earlier in this thread that the Netherlands should align with France because this would force Japan to DoW France. IMO shis is not very wise since Japan is likely to DoW the entire world when they are ready for war against NEI.

Regards,
Oscar


Well, in the context of MWiF, it's not completely theoretical, as the computer will need to figure out what happens in this scenario (even if it's sub-optimal for the allies). And I'm not entirely convinced that this is a bad idea for the allies anyway. If NEI happens to go Vichy, and CW plays nice and doesn't DOW Vichy, then Vichy needs to send the CW 2 oil a turn as Vichy-controlled Netherlands minor country NEI is neutral. Furthermore, once US embargoes oil then NEI stops giving Japan 2 oil a turn and Japan can't even attack Vichy NEI unless Germany collapses Vichy which makes NEI free french.

Unless Harry replies back and tells me I'm wrong about this.

(in reply to oscar72se)
Post #: 69
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 6:09:50 PM   
praem


Posts: 220
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline 		Hre is to hoping Harry does rebute this idea - as sound as it may be, it does not make sence to have Vichy give all 4 oil to CW and Japan not being able to attack Vichy or ocupy it as in Indochina. In other words IF the interpitation is correct, I think we've found a glitch in the rules.

(in reply to obermeister)
Post #: 70
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 6:14:15 PM   
Extraneous

 

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Joined: 6/14/2008
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If you as basing your assumption that continuing alignment/control is due to the CW’s continued controlling the NEI in the RAW7scenario.pdf consider this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

Conquest: To conquer any other home country, you must control its capital plus every printed factory hex in that home country. You do not need to control a hex that only contains factories that were moved, or built, there.

Incomplete conquest: Now change the control of the conquered home country. Every one of its hexes occupied by a land unit become controlled by that unit’s controlling major power (most combat factors if more than one). All other hexes in the home country become controlled by the conquering major power. All other territory the conquered major power or minor country controls remains under its control.

Complete conquest: When a major power or minor country no longer controls its own or any aligned home country, it has been completely conquered. Thereafter, it is at peace with everyone it was at war with.



The Netherlands home country has been incompletely conquered.

The NEI home country has not been conquered and is controlled by the CW.

The CW is still at war with Germany and Italy but is not at war with Japan.



quote:

ORIGINAL:  paulderynck

Interesting point of view, but nothing says alignments are terminated when countries are neutral. If they were then the French colonies that go Vichy might not be aligned anymore.



There is also no reference to alignments of “true minor countries” continuing after the major power makes peace. And we are discussing “true minor countries” not minor countries that start as part of a major power.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

We represent the independence of true minor countries by making them neutral until they enter the war. They enter the war when someone declares war on them or when they otherwise align themselves with a major power. In either case, for game purposes you will select a major power to run their affairs.

The scenario information (see 24.) will list which minor countries start the game conquered or aligned.



Scenario information (see 24.) is found in RAW7scenario.pdf.

When Vichy’s is installed it is a new neutral major power. So if Vichy makes peace the NEI (a “true minor country”) makes peace.

Minor countries that start as part of a major power follow rules for the major power making peace.

When “true minor countries” makes peace.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

If a minor makes peace and is now not at war with anyone, remove all its land and aircraft units from the game until it is next at war, upon which all its land and aircraft units are again set up as normal (see 19.4). All of the minor’s naval units remain under the control of their controlling major power (British in the case of the Commonwealth).





_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to obermeister)
Post #: 71
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 7:24:34 PM   
micheljq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: praem

Hre is to hoping Harry does rebute this idea - as sound as it may be, it does not make sence to have Vichy give all 4 oil to CW and Japan not being able to attack Vichy or ocupy it as in Indochina. In other words IF the interpitation is correct, I think we've found a glitch in the rules.


This is quite important, if Japan does not get the 2 oils from NEI, or must attack NEI early to get this oil, this can unbalance the game greatly, even more if playing with oil.

_____________________________

Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to praem)
Post #: 72
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 7:29:39 PM   
micheljq


Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
Status: offline 		Can this help out? from the faq.

Q5.1-1 5.1 Are Trade Agreements cancelled upon
(a) Incomplete Conquest?
(b) Complete Conquest?
(c) Vichyfication?
(a) No
(b) yes
(c) no. Date 05/07/2007
5.1: They continue until either country involved in the
trade agreement is completely conquered or as
specified below.

_____________________________

Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to micheljq)
Post #: 73
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 7:53:18 PM   
obermeister


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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

Can this help out? from the faq.

Q5.1-1 5.1 Are Trade Agreements cancelled upon
(a) Incomplete Conquest?
(b) Complete Conquest?
(c) Vichyfication?
(a) No
(b) yes
(c) no. Date 05/07/2007
5.1: They continue until either country involved in the
trade agreement is completely conquered or as
specified below.


That is useful for half the question: CW would keep getting the remaining oil that NEI is not giving to Japan, as per 5.1, since the trade agreement is intact and Vichy (NEI's controller) is neutral.

However, it is not helpful in the part that some of us suspect is broken in the rules, which is the fact that when the US embargoes Japan, NEI oil is cut off, even if Vichy. And then CW will be getting all 4 oil from NEI, and Japan can't attack Vichy NEI as they are on the same side, obligating Germany to collapse Vichy in 1940/1941 so that Japan can invade NEI.

One way around this would be to have a rule that allowed Japan to occupy a Vichy NEI, much like occupying a Vichy French Indochina. Unfortunately, there is no such provision in the rules.

(in reply to micheljq)
Post #: 74
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 8:39:57 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		When reading this thread I want a new U.S. entry action. Maybe something looking like this?

37. Action: Japan occupies NEI (Note: May only be chosen if controlled by Vichy Goverment). Die roll: 18.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to obermeister)
Post #: 75
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 9:21:56 PM   
peskpesk


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From: Stockholm, Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm
...
37. Action: Japan occupies NEI (Note: May only be chosen if controlled by Vichy Goverment). Die roll: 18.


Ahh, so this would be line with the other actions Japan can make against Vichy:
* Japan occupies Madagascar (15)
* Japan occupies Indo-China (12)

Yes, that’s an interesting solution to the problem. Another way is simple to add a restriction to 31 Oil embargo - Japan no longer receives any resources from the US or from the Netherlands East Indies if it’s not Axis or Vichy controlled.

It will be interesting to se what Harry’s has to say about this Netherlands East Indies trick, aligning it to France and then making the Oil embargo …I’m quite sure he did not intend for the Axis to need to collapse Vichy in order for Japan to be able to declare war on NEI and secure the oil there.

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/3/2009 9:28:22 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 76
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 9:56:09 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

When reading this thread I want a new U.S. entry action. Maybe something looking like this?

37. Action: Japan occupies NEI (Note: May only be chosen if controlled by Vichy Goverment). Die roll: 18.

Or something like "Japan occupies Vichy aligned minor country".

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 77
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 10:18:44 PM   
obermeister


Posts: 74
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

When reading this thread I want a new U.S. entry action. Maybe something looking like this?

37. Action: Japan occupies NEI (Note: May only be chosen if controlled by Vichy Goverment). Die roll: 18.

Or something like "Japan occupies Vichy aligned minor country".


Patrice, so you agree this is a problem in the rules? Maybe it's something ADG can address in the next FAQ update?

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 78
RE: US entry question - 8/3/2009 10:39:01 PM   
sajbalk


Posts: 264
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From: Davenport, Iowa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obermeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

When reading this thread I want a new U.S. entry action. Maybe something looking like this?

37. Action: Japan occupies NEI (Note: May only be chosen if controlled by Vichy Goverment). Die roll: 18.

Or something like "Japan occupies Vichy aligned minor country".


Patrice, so you agree this is a problem in the rules? Maybe it's something ADG can address in the next FAQ update?


The LOC Vichy system takes care of this. For the computer game at hand, we have only the rules. I had not considered the deviousness of aligning the Netherlands to France pre-fall of France. If the embargo effects a Vichy NEI, then it is a cunning strategem. Germany can collapse Vichy OR let Japan starve from no oil as Japan cannot invade Vichy NEI, and the Allies would be fools to DOW Vichy.



_____________________________

Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to obermeister)
Post #: 79
RE: US entry question - 8/4/2009 12:18:54 AM   
paulderynck


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk


quote:

ORIGINAL: obermeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

When reading this thread I want a new U.S. entry action. Maybe something looking like this?

37. Action: Japan occupies NEI (Note: May only be chosen if controlled by Vichy Goverment). Die roll: 18.

Or something like "Japan occupies Vichy aligned minor country".


Patrice, so you agree this is a problem in the rules? Maybe it's something ADG can address in the next FAQ update?


The LOC Vichy system takes care of this. For the computer game at hand, we have only the rules. I had not considered the deviousness of aligning the Netherlands to France pre-fall of France. If the embargo effects a Vichy NEI, then it is a cunning strategem. Germany can collapse Vichy OR let Japan starve from no oil as Japan cannot invade Vichy NEI, and the Allies would be fools to DOW Vichy.



ADG did not respond to the "No US in Europe/Pacific" strategies with any rule changes. What will be ultimately ruled on this one is anyone's guess. Personally from the number of folks saying the Allies would be nuts to align Netherlands with France it would seem this is a radical strategy too, but to my mind not as radical as the No US ones - nor even as rules abusive by a long shot. There are penalties for the Allies to do this too.

Lately I've been thinking about how to respond to it from the Axis perspective, but right now there are too many clarifications needed to figure out just how it could all play out.

Maybe Harry will rule on this soon enough for you to try it out at the Con, Steve!

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to sajbalk)
Post #: 80
RE: US entry question - 8/4/2009 12:58:23 AM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		this thread is silly. it doesn't matter who controls the NEI. The US can play the oil embargo if the NEI is a Vichy colony, if Amsterdam still holds the BEF+Royal Engineers backed by a half dozen battleships, if the Dutch gov't-in-exile is living in London (or Guiana or Batavia), if it is a Free French colony, if a Russia at war with Japan launched a communist coup in the minds of the other Allied players and is the controlling major power, or if it is still neutral, and I really doubt Harry would ever rule otherwise, nor add new Japan<>Vichy options to rule 17 or 13. the Trade Agreement rule is a rule with any exceptions spelled out in the rules. This is not some rules trick activated by not having the CW align the place. It is a strategy available to the USA in every single game of World in Flames; no rules clarification or rules mod required. one thing no one has mentioned is that you might, however, get the Germans to collapse Vichy before the US is in the war, and that is probably worth two more entry chits. but Germany might not do that either. another upside is you might somehow panic the Japanese player.

if the USA wants to run up the US Entry level against Japan real fast (and that might take a while with 1940 chits) just to cut off Japan's oil for a year, Japan could respond once they see it coming by building their SYNTH plants perhaps a bit early, taking the Saudi oil, saving as much as they can, and then beating on the Chinese with leg units (perhaps just surrounding their cities) for a long time. meanwhile the European Axis would be cheering as they throttle the Russians or even the British (both likely ineligible for western aid) while the US struggles to build up the European entry level and tension required to join the war. (plus the CW could be down perhaps 15 BPs worth of very useful assets all through the early war and could not enter Vichy territory until war with Japan arrives at the Japanese player's choice). if the US goes with a normal set of entry options building up tension in both pools, by the time they can declare the oil embargo, it is just about time for Japan to declare war on them anyway, or risk a successful US declaration; normally Japan saves up some oil to cover these few turns. this is a standard calculus in any game of WiF and I don't see how a Vichy NEI changes it very much, nor do I think a pure-embargo entry strategy is very common either. In a Gibraltar campaign, Germany might prefer to collapse Vichy immediately regardless. During an oil embargo, Japan might be prepared to DoW one of the CW, Free France, or a neutral NEI anyway. if the Free French hold it (60% chance aside from Germany's decision on collapsing Vichy) they could hardly even fight back against the Japanese, not that the CW can do that much either, but they still have a lot more options on that than the Free French would. And you might have to make this align-the-Netherlands choice as early as the third impulse of the game, long before you can detect the German overall strategy.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 81
RE: US entry question - 8/4/2009 5:12:05 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
... (plus the CW could be down perhaps 15 BPs worth of very useful assets all through the early war and could not enter Vichy territory until war with Japan arrives at the Japanese player's choice).

As long as the Allies are not dumb enough to make Vichy hostile, they can DoW Vichy and occupy all her terrritory (except NEI prior to US entry option 43) that they are capable of and Vichy still can't lend resources to the axis.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 82
RE: US entry question - 8/4/2009 5:21:06 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

this thread is silly. it doesn't matter who controls the NEI. The US can play the oil embargo if the NEI is a Vichy colony, if Amsterdam still holds the BEF+Royal Engineers backed by a half dozen battleships, if the Dutch gov't-in-exile is living in London (or Guiana or Batavia), if it is a Free French colony, if a Russia at war with Japan launched a communist coup in the minds of the other Allied players and is the controlling major power, or if it is still neutral, and I really doubt Harry would ever rule otherwise, nor add new Japan<>Vichy options to rule 17 or 13. the Trade Agreement rule is a rule with any exceptions spelled out in the rules. This is not some rules trick activated by not having the CW align the place. It is a strategy available to the USA in every single game of World in Flames; no rules clarification or rules mod required. one thing no one has mentioned is that you might, however, get the Germans to collapse Vichy before the US is in the war, and that is probably worth two more entry chits. but Germany might not do that either. another upside is you might somehow panic the Japanese player.

Oil embargo or not, if NEI goes Vichy, the Japanese cannot sail in and grab the 4 oil resources when they feel like it. So they are oil starved as long as Vichy exists from mid-game onward. As Japan I build the two synths asap regardless.

The two upsides you mention for the Allies do not seem all that silly.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 83
RE: US entry question - 8/4/2009 6:34:33 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		what I meant was calls to 'change the game' are a little too much, nor is this a dangerous new rules exploit requiring Australian intervention; the oil embargo strategy is always an option for the USA. unless the USA decides to do the embargo, little changes with NEI Vichy. given no embargo, or an embargo shortly before war, what the Allies will get is a very quick end to the existence of Vichy France once Germany and the US are at war. this is perhaps something the Axis might already want, so they could jump into the power vaccuum themselves; it could be especially appealing if the CW hadn't declared war to keep Vichy from going active and cutting off the CW oil when they could have been making easy progress retaking the Vichy colonies. or maybe the Allies will want this at the time, but that is hard to know when they have to make the Netherlands alignment decision far earlier in the game.

to me, the minuses for the Allies outweigh the pluses of this 'pressure' on the Japanese. I hope my next Allied opponent tries this.

I am more scared of CW reinforcing Pacific or NEI options than this idea or the embargo, and Vichy NEI takes that CW reinforce NEI action one off the table....err maybe. I could see a broken code gasket when the Allies try to play USE option 43 on a Vichy NEI.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 84
RE: US entry question - 8/4/2009 7:43:29 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Changing the game isn't necessary. What is necessary is receiving clarifications on the following:

1. Should the Netherlands minors follow the disposition of which one became the Dutch home country (meaning one roll, not two, under Admin Groups).
2. If the Dutch home country became France does it follow that it would be Vichy or Free French upon Vichyfication? If Vichy, players could guarantee a Vichy NEI. If FF, players could guarantee a FF NEI. That is; along with the assumption the Dutch minors follow the government-in-exile and don't roll separately.
3. Does a neutral Vichy NEI give 2 oil to the CW because of the FAQ question Micheljq quoted in post #73 and/or because the Netherlands became neutral again?
4. Is there any possibility that a Vichy NEI would ignore the Oil Embargo?

IMO RAW already answers #1 and #4 both as 'No' although it may not have been written anticipating this development. IMO #2 and #3 need clarification, so why not go for all four.

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Paul

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 85
RE: US entry question - 8/4/2009 5:17:16 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Changing the game isn't necessary. What is necessary is receiving clarifications on the following:

1. Should the Netherlands minors follow the disposition of which one became the Dutch home country (meaning one roll, not two, under Admin Groups).
2. If the Dutch home country became France does it follow that it would be Vichy or Free French upon Vichyfication? If Vichy, players could guarantee a Vichy NEI. If FF, players could guarantee a FF NEI. That is; along with the assumption the Dutch minors follow the government-in-exile and don't roll separately.
3. Does a neutral Vichy NEI give 2 oil to the CW because of the FAQ question Micheljq quoted in post #73 and/or because the Netherlands became neutral again?
4. Is there any possibility that a Vichy NEI would ignore the Oil Embargo?

IMO RAW already answers #1 and #4 both as 'No' although it may not have been written anticipating this development. IMO #2 and #3 need clarification, so why not go for all four.


Here is one you might want to add to your list:

If France has added the Netherland units to its force pool this would include Netherland units.

Move all French controlled non-naval units and markers on the production circle to Metropolitan Vichy France.


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University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 86
RE: US entry question - 8/4/2009 6:23:47 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Big, sigh about this NEI Vichy controlled oil embargo trick

IMO IF NEI was Vichy controlled, historical would Japan have occupied it when the oil embargo came anyway, (although I’m not sure that a Vichy controlled NEI would have followed the US/Western allied demand of an oil embargo in the first place). The gamy trick of forcing the Axis to collapse the Vichy government in order for the Japanese to be able to secure the vital oil is unacceptable and breaks the intent of the game! Remember IMO.

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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 87
RE: US entry question - 8/4/2009 6:36:23 PM   
micheljq


Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Big, sigh about this NEI Vichy controlled oil embargo trick

IMO IF NEI was Vichy controlled, historical would Japan have occupied it when the oil embargo came anyway, (although I’m not sure that a Vichy controlled NEI would have followed the US/Western allied demand of an oil embargo in the first place). The gamy trick of forcing the Axis to collapse the Vichy government in order for the Japanese to be able to secure the vital oil is unacceptable and breaks the intent of the game! Remember IMO.


Personally I think this makes more sense.

_____________________________

Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 88
RE: US entry question - 8/4/2009 7:57:08 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Here is one you might want to add to your list:

If France has added the Netherland units to its force pool this would include Netherland units.

Move all French controlled non-naval units and markers on the production circle to Metropolitan Vichy France.


No, this is already covered under Incomplete Conquest: "Remove from the game all the conquered home county’s land and aircraft units that are in the conquered home country. Remove from the game all of its land and aircraft units not on the map."

What you quoted was under the heading "French Units" although it is questionable then why the wording "French controlled" is used. But the only time this would matter is if the Netherlands is DoW'd and conquered in the same turn as France is Vichied. Conquest occurs before Vichy in the Sequence of Play so all the Netherlands units on the spiral and in the French force pool are gone. This would not apply to the NEI Militia if it were sitting on the spiral for next turn however, since NEI is not conquered. The wording you quoted would say move it to Metropolitan Vichy France, but Militia units can only be placed in their named city.

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Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 89
RE: US entry question - 8/4/2009 9:24:21 PM   
morgil


Posts: 114
Joined: 5/9/2008
From: Bergen, Norway
Status: offline 		But if NEI goes FF, and Dutch Guyana (as new Netherlands home country) goes Vichy, then CW still gets the 2 Oil, being shipped to Russia, as Netherlands are now Neutral.
That is, Netherlands are still at war with Germany, only they are being controlled out of Vichy, that is German controlled, so they deside to not fight, except the units in NEI that are FF controlled, that is controlled by the Russian player, giving Oil to Japan that they are at war with.
Now my head really hurts...



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Gott weiss ich will kein Engel sein.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 90
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