Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: obermeister

I'm curious about something...what is the clarification list?

quote:

ORIGINAL: lavisj

The one thing not to do with the NEI though is what happened in our last local game.
An agreement was made between Germany and Japan not to DoW the Netherlands until Japan was ready to attack so that it would benefit from a surprise impulse on it while still empty, and also to deny the 10CP and the TRS to the CW through 1940 and 1941.
So they attacked Netherlands in ND41. The problem is that Japan had attacked Russia in MJ and taken Vladivostock and was therefore at peace with Russia with a neutrality pact un place.
So Netherland go aligned to USSR and Japan was deprived of its oil for good.

Jerome

quote:

ORIGINAL: lavisj

The one thing not to do with the NEI though is what happened in our last local game.
An agreement was made between Germany and Japan not to DoW the Netherlands until Japan was ready to attack so that it would benefit from a surprise impulse on it while still empty, and also to deny the 10CP and the TRS to the CW through 1940 and 1941.
So they attacked Netherlands in ND41. The problem is that Japan had attacked Russia in MJ and taken Vladivostock and was therefore at peace with Russia with a neutrality pact un place.
So Netherland go aligned to USSR and Japan was deprived of its oil for good.

Jerome

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm
How did that end up happening? Was Japan already at war with the CW and FR, and failed to DoW the Netherlands?

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ORIGINAL: lavisj

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm
How did that end up happening? Was Japan already at war with the CW and FR, and failed to DoW the Netherlands?

No Japan was not at war with CW or FF at the time. So they DoW the CW at the same time Germany DoW the Netherlands, figuring that it would align to the CW and therefore he would be just fine. He figured even if we aligned it to FF he would just attack it next impulse instead. But he did not anticipate the alignment with USSR which precluded any further DoW.

Now, eventually, Japan was able to break the pact with Russia again, but it forced him to divert considerable ressources to Manchouria, and he was therefore not able to repulse the 2 CW units that had come to occupy Batavia in the meantime. So, eventually Japan got the use of the 2 oils in borneo, but not the 2 oils in Palembang which remained Russian until the end of the game.

Jerome

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ORIGINAL: sajbalk

Japan did get hurt.

I would point out one reason things should work out differently in the same situation in a WiFFE scenario. Once peace was declared, the USSR and Japan were in a neutrality pact. Under 9.5, units that you are at war with may not enter a hex within 3 hexes of one you control. If there already, they are removed.

The effect in your game: if Japan can land in North Borneo then the allies (except USSR) cannot reinforce the rest of the island. If Japan takes Malaya and Singapore, the 2 oil spot and its island cannot be reinforced. If Japan takes Christmas Island, Batavia and its island cannot be reinforced.

Still good play by the allies, but it should not have been quite that good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lavisj

We actually did not think of the common border issue, but the British troops only were ever in Batavia which is 3 hexes further away from north Borneo (and Japan did not take Christmas Islands). Palembang was occupied by the 2 units from the NEI (MIL and TERR) supported by the Dutch plane.
I think if we had thought of that, Japan has to land in Chirstmas Islands the turn before it can DoW Russia again or the impulse before.

Thanks for the information.

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: lavisj

We actually did not think of the common border issue, but the British troops only were ever in Batavia which is 3 hexes further away from north Borneo (and Japan did not take Christmas Islands). Palembang was occupied by the 2 units from the NEI (MIL and TERR) supported by the Dutch plane.
I think if we had thought of that, Japan has to land in Chirstmas Islands the turn before it can DoW Russia again or the impulse before.

Thanks for the information.

Thinking about this some more, I'm not so sure the Japanese causing the common border to extend into NEI would cause the CW units already there to teleport out. If they were in the common border area when the Pact was made - yes; and once the common border exists there, they cannot enter.

However if they arrive in NEI after the Pact but before NEI is part of the common border - is it a given they must teleport out? Reading the rule over again does not give me that impression.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lavisj

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm
How did that end up happening? Was Japan already at war with the CW and FR, and failed to DoW the Netherlands?

No Japan was not at war with CW or FF at the time. So they DoW the CW at the same time Germany DoW the Netherlands, figuring that it would align to the CW and therefore he would be just fine. He figured even if we aligned it to FF he would just attack it next impulse instead. But he did not anticipate the alignment with USSR which precluded any further DoW.

Now, eventually, Japan was able to break the pact with Russia again, but it forced him to divert considerable ressources to Manchouria, and he was therefore not able to repulse the 2 CW units that had come to occupy Batavia in the meantime. So, eventually Japan got the use of the 2 oils in borneo, but not the 2 oils in Palembang which remained Russian until the end of the game.

Jerome

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ORIGINAL: sajbalk

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: lavisj

We actually did not think of the common border issue, but the British troops only were ever in Batavia which is 3 hexes further away from north Borneo (and Japan did not take Christmas Islands). Palembang was occupied by the 2 units from the NEI (MIL and TERR) supported by the Dutch plane.
I think if we had thought of that, Japan has to land in Chirstmas Islands the turn before it can DoW Russia again or the impulse before.

Thanks for the information.

Thinking about this some more, I'm not so sure the Japanese causing the common border to extend into NEI would cause the CW units already there to teleport out. If they were in the common border area when the Pact was made - yes; and once the common border exists there, they cannot enter.

However if they arrive in NEI after the Pact but before NEI is part of the common border - is it a given they must teleport out? Reading the rule over again does not give me that impression.

From RAW Neutrality Pacts:

After you enter into a neutrality pact with a major power, units
controlled by other major powers on your side cannot enter hexes that
are part of your common border with that major power if they are at
war with that other major power. If they are in the common border
already, move them immediately to the nearest friendly hex not in the
common border in which they can legally stack.
Your common border with another major power consists of every hex
you (or your aligned minor countries) control within 3 hexes and/or
hexdots of a hex controlled by the other major power (or its aligned
minor countries). Hexes on the American, Asian or Pacific maps, and
off-map hexes, still count as only 1 hex for this purpose.

Different situation (with GER-USSR Pact in existence):
(1) IT and USSR at war.
(2) IT has units in Warsaw.
(3) USSR occupies E. Poland.
(4) IT units must move.

Same thing right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: obermeister

Time will tell if it was the correct move, but in our game we decided to give the Netherlands to CW instead of FF.  As the US player, I was a little nervous about exploding the number of entry chits I was getting.  Basically I was worried about my entry level getting too high for the tension level I had.  If I was getting 2 extra chits a turn, I was feeling nervous about the tension levels I'd need to declare war.  I'm already getting 2 chits a turn, provided the axis doesn't do anything else naughty.  Time will tell if I'm right about this: this is my first WiF game.  What do you guys think? 

On top of that, we are playing with Poltics in Flames, and CW getting Netherlands from a German DOW gives them like 16 political points, compared to the 10 Free france would have gotten.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Issue 1: Vichyfication process - is it by minor country with 2 rolls for two Admin Groups or by where the Dutch home country (gov't-in-exile) is located and the Dutch minors will follow? If not the latter then NEI and Dutch Guyana might be split between Vichy and FF.

Issue 2: Vichyfication process - if by Dutch home country location, what happens if the Allies just choose France as the new Dutch Home country? Does it follow that it would go Vichy? - why not FF? the real Dutch kept fighting. Either way it means the Allied side is guaranteed of an outcome if they choose France as the new Dutch Home country when the Netherlands is incompletely conquered.

Issue 3: Trade Agreements - If there is a neutral Vichy NEI, does it keep 2 oil for itself or must it send 2 oil to the CW per the Trade Agreement that says a neutral Netherlands sends the rest of the NEI oil to the CW? That agreement does not have a "continues until" clause (Edit:except that it continues until either the Netherlands or the CW are completely conquered). The oil to Japan does have a "continues until" clause.

Issue 4: Should there be a modification to the rule that says the Oil Embargo cuts off the oil to Japan no matter what? That is RAW but...

Issue 5: Should there be a modification to the rule that says Japan can do nothing about a Vichy NEI unless it is collapsed? That is RAW but...

Issue 6: Given a Vichy NEI, how does US Entry Option 43 operate?

I don't think current RAW provides answers to Issues 1, 2 and 3 and if they are answered, then the impact of Issues 4, 5 and 6 can be examined.

Thanks for summing that up Paul, I was getting lost in the arguments.
Could you submit this to Harry via the Rules Clarification list please ?

Now, about issue 4 above, I'm sorry I've not fully understood what the problem was. Could you explain it to me ? Why wouldn't the oil embargo cut the oil to Japan ? If NEI are Vichy, that option won't be played sooner than if the NEI are CW controlled, will it ?

About issue 5, this makes sense gamewise and I seem to remember an US Entry Action from Annual 1998 that was to get control of the NEI.
It was : Japan occupies New Caledonia or NEI (may only be chosen after Vichy government have been installed) 15
So why not reinstall it.

There were a handfull of interesting items in this US Entry Action / Option from Annual 1998.

Edit : After seeing obermeister's post, I wanted to add that the Annual 1998 was the one with Leaders in Flames

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A little update about that.

This subject have been put in discussions at the Rules Clarifications list for a few days, and Harry took a number of decisions. Errata most of the time, as this case of the NEI ending Vichy was never thought about when making the rule, so the case have no real answer. This is not yet written in stone so I'm not going to give you his answers now, but Paul or Steve (Balk) or me should be able to give you that soon.