Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I think a lot of what they sent by the air route was airplanes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: iamspamus

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

the Turks would never have transshipped war material to Russia, that option wasn't even on the table; if anything in WWII they would have been in the 'Axis Influenced' camp or more strictly Neutral.

Concur. The Turks hated and feared the Russians throughout the 18th-20th Century. They fought numerous wars during this time period. It would be a similar concept to the US transshipping goods to Europe through the Soviet Union during the height of the cold war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

And the Americans really did send war material to Russia via an air route from Alaska to Siberia. That is historical (newest rules allow 1 BP per turn, but the Axis have no way whatsoever to influence that). Using Turkish railroads for that is not. The Persian route is very historical, but a little over-rated in WiF, with no through-put limits at all, in the worthwhile interests of quick and simple playability.

It may be historical, but to send the equivalent of 1 BP worth of supplies, that would take a very huge fleet of airplanes. I am not sure the americans sent so much from Alaska to Siberia.

quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

quote:

ORIGINAL: iamspamus

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

the Turks would never have transshipped war material to Russia, that option wasn't even on the table; if anything in WWII they would have been in the 'Axis Influenced' camp or more strictly Neutral.

Concur. The Turks hated and feared the Russians throughout the 18th-20th Century. They fought numerous wars during this time period. It would be a similar concept to the US transshipping goods to Europe through the Soviet Union during the height of the cold war.

Turkey was neutral during the course of the war and declared war on Axis as a ceremonial gesture in february 23th, 1945. Their leader did his best to keep them out of this war despite Nazz Germany and Western Allies pressure. They were not "so opposed" to the americans. In fact, even now there are U.S. bases in Turkey no? even if it's more a result of the cold war. With proper pressure from U.S., they could as well let them use their railways during the WW2.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

If I recall correctly, a lot of neutral powers, once the war was firmly going the Allies' way, did bandwagon a little bit towards the Allies. Usually not enough that they could be claimed to be not neutral, but certainly that kind of thing went on. I believe near the end of the war Sweden cut Germany off, for example, from its iron shipments (someone with more time to research may want to confirm this)?

quote:

ORIGINAL: praem

The reality was by 1943 the final outcome was given (and at that time the resistance movements in the ocupied nations startet gaining lots of recruits). By that time Sweden was in no threat of being invaded. In other words - it was not likely to be fear of invasion, that fueled the Swedes desire to sell Iron - more likely it was money - and by the time they stopped selling to Germany, I'm betting the alies pressured Sweden to do so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm
Germany had a plan to invade Sweden as late as the summer 1943. For several reasons the plan was cancelled and the invasion forces withdrawn. In 1944 Hitler demanded an attack on Sweden but was eventually talked out of it. Instead they planned to launch v-1 and v-2 rockets spring 44. It was eventually decided that other targets should get resourses first. In 1945 the plan to fire terror weapons on Sweden was once again activated by order from OKW. When Germany surrendered preparations to launch the rockets on Sweden were on the way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

But did the Swedes know that the Germans had those plans? And even if they did have those plans, did they really have the capacity to carry them out?

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ORIGINAL: iamspamus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm
Germany had a plan to invade Sweden as late as the summer 1943. For several reasons the plan was cancelled and the invasion forces withdrawn. In 1944 Hitler demanded an attack on Sweden but was eventually talked out of it. Instead they planned to launch v-1 and v-2 rockets spring 44. It was eventually decided that other targets should get resourses first. In 1945 the plan to fire terror weapons on Sweden was once again activated by order from OKW. When Germany surrendered preparations to launch the rockets on Sweden were on the way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

But did the Swedes know that the Germans had those plans? And even if they did have those plans, did they really have the capacity to carry them out?

Good question C99. Also, did Germany have these contingency plans for tons of countries, like current governments do now? I mean any country with a decent upper echelon military has contingency plans.

AND I think that the Russia AIO should be good...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gurggulk

More suggestions for Naval setups.

Option A Black Sea Build up
USSR Naval Setup Global War.
Baltic Sea Fleet and 2 submarines, Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet and transport, Sevastapol
2 submarines Vladivostok

Option B Far East Build up, Put Japan on notice
Baltic Sea Fleet Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet and transport, Sevastapol
4 submarines Vladivostok

Option C Baltic Sea Build up, possible winter war
Baltic Sea Fleet 2 submarines and transport, Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet, Sevastapol
2 submarines Vladivostok

Option D
waiting for comments

convoy point deployment options
Option A
3 Caspian Sea, For ensuring oil in case rail line is cut
Option B
1 Caspian Sea, 1 Black Sea, 1 Baltic Sea with use of Limited Overseas Supply option.

Maybe someone can refresh my memory about the USSR's, chances of getting convoy points from the Baltic states.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gurggulk

Option B Far East Build up, Put Japan on notice
Baltic Sea Fleet Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet and transport, Sevastapol
4 submarines Vladivostok

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gurggulk

More suggestions for Naval setups.

Option A Black Sea Build up
USSR Naval Setup Global War.
Baltic Sea Fleet and 2 submarines, Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet and transport, Sevastapol
2 submarines Vladivostok

Option B Far East Build up, Put Japan on notice
Baltic Sea Fleet Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet and transport, Sevastapol
4 submarines Vladivostok

Option C Baltic Sea Build up, possible winter war
Baltic Sea Fleet 2 submarines and transport, Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet, Sevastapol
2 submarines Vladivostok

Option D
waiting for comments

convoy point deployment options
Option A
3 Caspian Sea, For ensuring oil in case rail line is cut
Option B
1 Caspian Sea, 1 Black Sea, 1 Baltic Sea with use of Limited Overseas Supply option.

Maybe someone can refresh my memory about the USSR's, chances of getting convoy points from the Baltic states.

Probability = Zero.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

So with the recent re-play of an historically timed Winter War in MWiF, I've been thinking about the Russian AI and a Demand for the Borderlands. I think the question of this basic decision has only been discussed in passing in this thread for the most part. I've been trying to figure out how to shore up the Russians during a 1941 Barbarossa backed by a lot of Italian air, which is a very, very dangerous strategy for the Allies to handle; they should consider this possibility carefully until the fall of 1940 and German intentions are finally known for sure. I have decided the Russians will need to do everything they can to get two factories to Murmansk, and a major way to help that goal is to demand the Finnish Borderlands.

So how do you go about doing that? For me, an historical attempt in 1939 is right out. The biggest downside of all to demanding the Borderlands is possibly losing two US Entry chits, and those are too valuable in 1939, plus the weather will probably be atrocious.

Now, since your real goal is to keep the Axis away from the rail line to Murmansk for just the first turn of war, it works out OK for the Russians to go to full war with the Finns. I would probably definitely make a point of taking a non-Borderland hex so the war could never end. It will then be somewhat unlikely that the Axis can threaten the rail line as they will mostly be in the south defending Helsinki, and the few that aren't can probably be contained easily by cavalry divisions cutting their supply and this just about guarantees the safety of the rail lines. No one says you have to attempt to go all the way to Helsinki.

I looked at Christopher's set-ups back on page 6 or so of this thread, and I think it is do-able to defend the rail line for 2 impulses. The units up there are safe from the air assault on the main front, and I think the Russians do have enough of them; I only commit enough units in Byelorussia and the Ukraine to get the factories out while the rest of the army retreats steadily.

Thus I have come around to wanting to demand the Borderlands in May/Jun of 1940, or perhaps Jul/Aug when you will have the best possible weather. Also in those turns the Germans will be less likely to spare a Combined impulse to send in some peacekeepers, or it will at least hinder them a little in France. All of the Russian planes should be nearby, with some divisions along the shore of the Baltic and Timoshenko somewhere in Karelia to threaten to take a non-Borderlands hex or even the Finnish resource. If the Germans decide to fight, you will need all of your offensive assets; if the threat is heavy enough they might cede the Borderlands without a fight.

So for me the largest question of all goes back to if the risk of losing two USE chits is worth it. To me, it is, but the possible delay in playing US Option 30, Lend-Lease to USSR, makes me think really hard. The Japanese can shut down the potential lend-lease routes in the Far East and even in Persia, irrespective of Russian decisions. Routes through the non-Persian Middle East are also potentially vulnerable to Axis activity, though if the Italians are dedicated to building an air force for Russia, these should be a bit safer, but limited to what can come from India - 2 BPs and some resources. Really the Russians need both routes going to survive past the critical summer of 1942, given a full Barbarossa with lots of Italian support. One problem is that in 1940 you don't know yet if the Axis is planning this.

[And I think as Germany I would just always make the Russians fight and take the USE gains for the good of the entire Axis and their long-term survival.]

So, what have you been thinking lately about a demand for the Finnish Borderlands?