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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> Operation AI aka Battle of Midway

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Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/27/2009 4:24:00 AM

Ron Belcher
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Off the top, I not a modder or an editor

... With that being said, I shall continue.

I'm hoping someone is working or willing to do this scenario. Could be interesting!

*just a thought*

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/27/2009 6:51:31 PM

V22 Osprey
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Actually, the Battle of midway would be a fantastic small scenario.It gives chances to see "what ifs" like if the Yorktown wasn't sunk, or the Japanese invasion force actually made it to midway.

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/27/2009 6:53:11 PM

Terminus
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Even if the IJN had sunk Yorktown, Enterprise and Hornet, they would not have been able to successfully invade Midway.

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/27/2009 7:13:21 PM

Historiker
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It would be much easier to follow you if you justify such statements and don't just always put them into the middle of the room and vanish...

I'd be really interested in hearing why!

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/27/2009 8:27:16 PM

Terminus
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Geography, doctrine, relative strengths, equipment, you name it. Let's start from the beginning:

GEOGRAPHY: Midway Atoll is surrounded by a coral reef. Completely surrounded. Ask yourself what happened when the US Marines attempted to land on Tarawa, another speck of sand surrounded by coral 18 months later.

DOCTRINE: The Japanese had no amphibious assault doctrine. Ask yourself how many amphibious assaults (i.e. opposed landings) the Japs conducted and how successful they were. There was also a complete absence of ship-to-shore and air-to-shore support doctrine, i.e. no effective bombardment from the sea or air. We all know how ineffective subsequent USN bombardment of Jap shore defences turned out to be.

RELATIVE STRENGTHS: The Japs brought two poorly-integrated "assault" units, one IJA and one IJN to attack a heavily-fortified atoll, held by USMC regulars and raiders, who could bring every inch of the coral reef under fire. There were about 5,000 Japs to about 2,500 heavily fortified Marines and maybe 1,000 other personnel (USN and USAAF). An old truism is that an attacker needs 3-to-1 odds to succeed. In an amphibious assault over a coral reef, that might (in my view) be more like 6-to-1.

EQUIPMENT: Back to Tarawa. The USMC 2nd Division was bled white whilst landing on Tarawa, despite having Higgins Boats and Amtraks. The Japanese had Daihatsu barges, which would have gotten stuck on the Midway reef (just like the Higgins Boats did a year and a half later), about 200 yards off shore, forcing their human cargo to wade to the beach, under fire from every weapon imaginable.

The outcome of a Midway battle which resulted in the loss of all three US carriers would NOT have included Midway as a Jap base, unless the US decided to subsequently evacuate it.

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/27/2009 8:28:41 PM

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Most historians feel that the Japanese brought too small a force to invade the island, having thought of course that they would acheive complete suprise on the Americans. Parshalls and Tully in the most recent book on Midway (The often mentioned "Shattered Sword", devoted an entire appendix at the end of the book on the subject of the amphibious assault. They gave it a Siskel and Ebert thumbs down in their conclusion)

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/27/2009 8:42:47 PM

Historiker
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Thank you T!

(but don't forget the Yamato spirit - and that americans can't see in the dark

)

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/27/2009 8:46:44 PM

Terminus
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Oh yeah, the Japs could land in the dark! Good one!

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/27/2009 8:55:00 PM

Nikademus
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actually they could.....

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/27/2009 8:56:16 PM

Terminus
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Yeah, their mangled corpses could land on the reef after being thrown into the air by artillery...

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/27/2009 8:58:35 PM

Nikademus
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well obviously in the case of Midway, the cover of darkness would have served them little....but landing in darkness was a part of their Amphibious operational doctrine. The idea of course was to minimize enemy reaction and accuracy if around.

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/27/2009 8:59:59 PM

Terminus
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Landing unopposed was also part of their doctrine, apparently. Tough when your opponent don't play ball.

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/27/2009 9:10:37 PM

Nikademus
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well yeah......you always want to land or attack where the enemy either "ain't" or at least is in weaker strength. That was the goal even for the greatest amphib assault of all time......Normandy. Prior to the war, the Japanese, like the British, didn't think full blown amphibious assault operations were viable in the modern age thus they stressed operations that would avoid a head on confrontation on the scale of a Galipoli. Amphib ops of course, opposed or unopposed are the most difficult of military ops to pull off so the Japanese army did develop it interwar and got to practice it as well. Ironically, this put the Japanese at the head of the class (Per "Kaigun") in regards to proficiency and experience at the war's beginning. Not all their landings were unopposed but yes, their ops do not bear relation to later war operations such as Tarawa or Iwo Jima. Apples and Oranges.

On the other side of the coin, the USMC did embrace Amphibious Assault and had a "doctrine" for it. This however didn't prevent their first attempt from being a fairly "balls up" affair. Historian Richard Frank noted that it was just as well that that landing (WATCHTOWER) ended up being unopposed given the confusion and errors that were committed.

Ultimately it takes more than doctrine to pull em off. Planning, practice, experience, material, and a bit of luck all help too.

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/27/2009 9:49:12 PM

Terminus
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Correct, all of which the Japanese were rather deficient in. "Hit 'em where they ain't" is a good tactic, but not on a tiny little piece of real estate like Midway.

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/28/2009 12:56:56 AM

88l71
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Yeah, for a historical precedent, just look what happened at Wake.

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/28/2009 2:19:25 AM

wdolson
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Wake wasn't nearly as well prepared as Midway and they managed to beat off the first landing. If the Japanese had somehow managed to take Midway, which would have been a miracle, they wouldn't have been able to keep it. Their nearest base was nearly 1000 miles away and the US's largest base outside the mainland was at the other end of the island chain.

Even if the US had lost all three carriers, Midway would have been under constant B-17 bombing as soon as the KB pulled out. Once the airfield was neutralized and most of the supplies destroyed, the Marines would have been coming in to take it back.

Edit: Back to the original post in this thread. Using the editor is not that difficult. I would recommend anybody who is interested in a mod look into making one yourself. You could always put out feelers to see if anyone wants to collaborate. I've found an attitude of "I want to do this, anyone want to help me do it" gets a more positive reaction than "I want this, is somebody going to do it?"

The former attitude is what made AE a reality. A few people wanted to make some updates to the game and it turned into what we have today.

Bill

< Message edited by wdolson -- 8/28/2009 2:23:02 AM >

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/29/2009 4:12:32 PM

bklooste
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GEOGRAPHY: Midway Atoll is surrounded by a coral reef. Completely surrounded. Ask yourself what happened when the US Marines attempted to land on Tarawa, another speck of sand surrounded by coral 18 months later.

RELATIVE STRENGTHS: The Japs brought two poorly-integrated "assault" units, one IJA and one IJN to attack a heavily-fortified atoll, held by USMC regulars and raiders, who could bring every inch of the coral reef under fire. There were about 5,000 Japs to about 2,500 heavily fortified Marines and maybe 1,000 other personnel (USN and USAAF). An old truism is that an attacker needs 3-to-1 odds to succeed. In an amphibious assault over a coral reef, that might (in my view) be more like 6-to-1.

The Battleship bombardment at Tarawa killed half the garrison , Midway would be the same if not worse. That brings it to 5000 vs 1250 or more likely 5000 vs 250 demoralized stragglers

Have a look at this photo of Nov 41
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Midway_Atoll.jpg

Note how close the reef is to the main island ( about 200 yards as stated) .
Also note what 6 Battleships and 14-18" shells do that island.
Note how the base and facilities and air strip are on different islands. Japan can attack and take the air strip isolating the marines.
I also read somewhere that all of Midways defences were unarmoured eg trenches and sandbags. At least at Tarawa there were concrete pillboxes and a sea wall. In addition there was no depth like there was at Tarawa.

That being said IJA planners figured on 2000 Marines however it would have been close and would probably have come down to how well they would have fought if the 3 carriers were lost there was no opportunity for relief which may have affected the marine performance.

Regards,

Ben

< Message edited by bklooste -- 8/29/2009 4:52:06 PM >

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/29/2009 4:42:37 PM

Terminus
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Incorrect in every respect. The US bombardment of Tarawa in no way "killed half the garrison"; in fact, the battle violently dispelled the long-held myth that fortified defenders could be neutralized by shore bombardment.

The biggest difference that ship-to-shore artillery made was the lucky shot that killed the Japanese garrison commander, Admiral Shibasaki, a man who'd boasted that the Americans couldn't take the island with a million men in a million years. This compromised the Jap chain of command.

At Midway, Japanese shore bombardment would have consisted of the four heavy cruisers of Kurita's CRUDIV 7, which were explicitly detailed for that purpose, and that would have been it.

Also, 200 yards from the reef to the shore would have been an eternity to wade through with full gear, under enemy fire. At Tarawa, 50% of the 990 USMC fatalities happened when they had to wade from the reef to the shore. You try to run through chest-high water for 200 yards with a pack on your back and a rifle. Just try it.

So I'd suggest you do your research a bit more thoroughly.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 8/29/2009 7:33:59 PM >

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/29/2009 4:45:13 PM

bklooste
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A lot of the Malay and PI landings were opposed , Kota Boru had an Indian Brigade there i think. In this sense i dont think Japanese Doctrine was different from allied Doctrine .

Hit them where they are not
Normandy , North Africa , Anzio ,Leyte were all against the lightest possible troops while striving for a port. Kota Boru(Singora) and Lingayen was the same , they could have invaded where there were even less but the port was important.

Surprise .
I dont think Allied planners didnt use surprise in any of the above landings.

Night
I cant think of any other nation that prioritized night landings. The cover does provide some advantages at the very least some defensive pieces will be firing star shells instead of HE and the attacker has the advantage of ship based star shells.

At Midway there was no surprise so a massive battleship bombardment would have pounded the place for days if the carriers were sunk . After 3-4 days of sleepless hell a night invasion would be appropriate especially when a lot of wading is involved maybe with a few DDs firing at point blank at 1000 yards it is very unlikely any of the CDs would be intact.

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RE: Operation AI aka Battle of Midway - 8/29/2009 7:52:29 PM

keeferon01
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

DOCTRINE: The Japanese had no amphibious assault doctrine. Ask yourself how many amphibious assaults (i.e. opposed landings) the Japs conducted and how successful they were. There was also a complete absence of ship-to-shore and air-to-shore support doctrine, i.e. no effective bombardment from the sea or air. We all know how ineffective subsequent USN bombardment of Jap shore defences turned out to be.

mmmm , I always thought the Japanese amphib doctrine was quite well conceived with the war with china it would nearly always land naval and army forces together, so i think the doctrine was firmly in place early on. But I agree they never experimented much with the experience gained.

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> Operation AI aka Battle of Midway

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