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Modern Wars Vol 1 - WHEN WILL IT SHIP? & Improvements to the game in general

 
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Modern Wars Vol 1 - WHEN WILL IT SHIP? & Improvements t... - 9/4/2009 6:47:27 AM   
mheard

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 9/4/2009
Status: offline 		I have just received and 'installed' Divided Ground. (I did have this a few years back but having stoppped playing the campaign series for quite a while now I threw the old copy out). Anyway, having installed the mods from the Blitz site as well I'm now evaluating the product once again. The Vietnam mod has not been added as yet.

Oh dear.. so many bugs even with version 2 ( as in V2.01 from the Blitz website). I can't play any linked campaigns as the display goes haywire when trying to save the lcd file at the start of the campaign. This might be to do with the fact that I couldn't install the product properly usung the setup.exe file - I just copied the contents of the CD into a Divided Ground directory. (I am running XP SP3 - so, anyone who can throw light on the installation issue gets my thanks immediately).

To the point though. Will all, albeit revised and improved versions, of the DG + mods scenarios & linked campaigns be in Modern Wars? Will all of the Vietnam mod scenarios be in there too? (I'm not too bothered about Dynamic games at present because I found the game generator to be pretty dire in the Talonsoft originals. As yet I haven't tried Dynamic Campaigns in the new JTCS - has the facility been improved by the way?)

Personally I would be happy with a first and early release of Modern Wars I to just be 'Divided Ground Middle East Wars ' so to speak with the Vietnam War part to follow as version 1.02. To have both would be great.

When will Modern Wars be shipping? I can't wait....

Meanwhile JTCS is due for Release 1.05? When will this be available?

There are a load of improvements that I would like to see for the game. These changes would apply to new/improved features and the 'intelligence of HAL/the AI. The latter, I understand, is a rather complicated matter.

For example;

  • Can units be split? It would be useful to enable splitting and re-joining of say an infantry platoon into sub sections of 2 and/or 3 points to represent squads of soldiers. Very useful for small unit actions.

  • Buildings that burn and produce smoke after being shelled by artillery or where fighting has been taking place in building hexes. The resulting fires would interdict infantry and soft skinned vehicles and the smoke impede visibility.

  • Optional ammunition supply and levels to be by units at Battalion level. Take for example any '7th Cavalry to the rescue' scenarios. Its pretty daft to have the besieged units at the same levels of ammunition as the rescuing forces.

  • Artillery supply to be exhausted after so many firings or number of turns to represent short but massive artillery barrages. (I would also argue that any hex targeted by several pieces of artillery should have the effect of automatically dropping the morale of all 'human' units in that hex).

  • Is poison gas to be included for the Middle East conflict - Iraq/Iran war?

  • Helicopters to be on the ground before they can load passengers and equipment.

  • Helicopters to be at varying height(s) either flying or hovering. That is to enable hiding behind hills but when flying normally to be seen without restriction from the ground depending on the weather conditions. Seemingly, in DG helicopters are treated as any other units and can hide behind an obstacle that might be only a few metres in height.

There are quite a number of other suggestions I could make but I won't ramble on any further at this juncture. I hope this post gets some responses.

Final question. Does anyone know what programming language the game is written in and is it possible to look at the source code? 'Idle' curiosity as I would like to know how it all works.

Bye All.

Martin Heard
Post #: 1
RE: Modern Wars Vol 1 - WHEN WILL IT SHIP? & Improvemen... - 9/4/2009 4:21:17 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard

Oh dear.. so many bugs even with version 2 ( as in V2.01 from the Blitz website). I can't play any linked campaigns as the display goes haywire when trying to save the lcd file at the start of the campaign. This might be to do with the fact that I couldn't install the product properly usung the setup.exe file - I just copied the contents of the CD into a Divided Ground directory. (I am running XP SP3 - so, anyone who can throw light on the installation issue gets my thanks immediately).


Try saving the campaign file to the DG directory, it might function properly after that.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard
To the point though. Will all, albeit revised and improved versions, of the DG + mods scenarios & linked campaigns be in Modern Wars? Will all of the Vietnam mod scenarios be in there too? (I'm not too bothered about Dynamic games at present because I found the game generator to be pretty dire in the Talonsoft originals. As yet I haven't tried Dynamic Campaigns in the new JTCS - has the facility been improved by the way?)


Modern Wars: Volume I consists of two games. Middle East (a brand new Divided Ground) and Vietnam.

The Middle East covers the various conflicts of the Middle East from 1948 - 1985 and Vietnam covers the three Indochina Wars between 1948-1985. Existing scenarios from DG will NOT function as it is the Middle East game is essentially brand new, new organizations, new units, rebuilt from the ground up. A collection of 50ish scenarios will be available for Vietnam.

DCG's will NOT be available in the initial release of Modern Wars: Volume I 1.00, but as it is intended to be a living game (as MCS is with the various UPDATES) it is hoped to be included in a future UPDATE.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard
When will Modern Wars be shipping? I can't wait....


As soon as I am happy with it. I am hoping for Christmas 2009.



quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard
Meanwhile JTCS is due for Release 1.05? When will this be available?


Some time in 2010 is the schedule for 1.05.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard
There are a load of improvements that I would like to see for the game. These changes would apply to new/improved features and the 'intelligence of HAL/the AI. The latter, I understand, is a rather complicated matter.

For example;

  • Can units be split? It would be useful to enable splitting and re-joining of say an infantry platoon into sub sections of 2 and/or 3 points to represent squads of soldiers. Very useful for small unit actions.


No.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mheard
  • Buildings that burn and produce smoke after being shelled by artillery or where fighting has been taking place in building hexes. The resulting fires would interdict infantry and soft skinned vehicles and the smoke impede visibility.


    • Noted.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mheard
  • Optional ammunition supply and levels to be by units at Battalion level. Take for example any '7th Cavalry to the rescue' scenarios. Its pretty daft to have the besieged units at the same levels of ammunition as the rescuing forces.


    • Noted. You can simulate this already, kind of, by surrounding the besieged unit and forcing them to supply check off the base ammo level.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mheard
  • Artillery supply to be exhausted after so many firings or number of turns to represent short but massive artillery barrages. (I would also argue that any hex targeted by several pieces of artillery should have the effect of automatically dropping the morale of all 'human' units in that hex).


    • Considered already.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mheard
  • Is poison gas to be included for the Middle East conflict - Iraq/Iran war?


    • No, but we are tinkering with it for World War I.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mheard
  • Helicopters to be on the ground before they can load passengers and equipment.


    • Out of scope, I believe.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mheard
  • Helicopters to be at varying height(s) either flying or hovering. That is to enable hiding behind hills but when flying normally to be seen without restriction from the ground depending on the weather conditions. Seemingly, in DG helicopters are treated as any other units and can hide behind an obstacle that might be only a few metres in height.


    • There are limitations. It will be explained in the documentation.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mheard
    There are quite a number of other suggestions I could make but I won't ramble on any further at this juncture. I hope this post gets some responses.

    Final question. Does anyone know what programming language the game is written in and is it possible to look at the source code? 'Idle' curiosity as I would like to know how it all works.


    Some version of C, I would imagine. I don't recall off the top of my head.

    No, looking at the source code isn't an option.

    Jason Petho


    < Message edited by Jason Petho -- 9/4/2009 4:22:41 PM >

    _____________________________


    CS Vietnam

    More info: Facebook & CS Legion

    (in reply to mheard)
    Post #: 2
    RE: Modern Wars Vol 1 - WHEN WILL IT SHIP? & Improvemen... - 9/5/2009 3:12:11 PM   
    mheard

     

    Posts: 25
    Joined: 9/4/2009
    Status: offline     		Thanks, Jason, for the very prompt reply and answers. I saved my DG LCG to the DG directory and hey presto it worked - many thanks for this one.

    I am going to post a more detailed list of what I would like to see in Modern Wars and JTCS version 1.05. However, I appreciate that many ideas cannot be incorporated per se or are nice to haves perhaps for sometime in the the future.

    Much time and effort must go into developing any changes and producing a new game. Plus all the testing etc., etc. I for one appreciate what you and others are doing. It is easy for an armchair enthusiast like myself to come up with ideas but not actually do the work to make it happen.

    Meanwhile I would like a bit of clarification on a few of your answers. Sorry, if I am being overly persistent and there are no negative criticisms intended.

    • It appears the core program of the game engine is untouched by you and others. I say that as you are not entirely sure what is the programming language (possibly C). So, if you don't touch it how do you make what appear to be actual processing changes such as including bridge building units?

    • Why can't units be split and re-joined?

    • Can loaded units with troops and light artillery & AT guns (lorries, personal carriers and tanks ) be loaded onto rafts, landing craft and boats?
    • Why are soft skinned venhicles not treated as wrecks when they are destroyed? Could enermy venhicles such as trucks after an assault be captuered and immedately for use by the captors. Certainly, this was done by the Germans as the American Dodge 2.5 was particularly highly prized.

      Sorry, I'm going into my wish list..

    • Helicopters to be on the ground before they can load passengers and equipment. You said this was out of scope. I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Is it not possible to include, for example, three helicopter unit 'modes'; Stationary (loading & unloading); hovering at x height above ground; in flight at x + n height above ground? Or, do you mean this is a feature that would have to wait for a Modern Wars Vol I release 1.0+ or V2.0+?

      [*}Connected with helicopters would be the inclusion of transport aircraft for both Modern Wars and JTCS. For the latter the inclusion of the C47 and JU52 would be a must I would have thought... Holland '40, Crete '41, Chindits, etc. Albeit these would have to land on landing strip hexes (minimum two contiguous). That bit might be a problem I suppose. However, I don't feel the use of gliders is a reasonable workaround.

    • Lastly, how do you and others prioritise changes & improvements and what features will be included in a new or existing game? I read with interest the somewhat fraught debate about DCGs and although I am with you on this one how did you come to the decision not to inlcude a DCG feature with Modern Wars Vo1 1.01?

    Best wishes,


    Martin Heard

    PS If you any beta testing required to be done just let me know.

    (in reply to Jason Petho)
    Post #: 3
    RE: Modern Wars Vol 1 - WHEN WILL IT SHIP? & Improvemen... - 9/5/2009 4:43:49 PM   
    Jason Petho


    Posts: 15009
    Joined: 6/22/2004
    From: Terrace, BC, Canada
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mheard


  • It appears the core program of the game engine is untouched by you and others. I say that as you are not entirely sure what is the programming language (possibly C). So, if you don't touch it how do you make what appear to be actual processing changes such as including bridge building units?

    • The game engine is touched, just not by me. The programmer does the programming, I have my hands in everything else.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mheard
  • Why can't units be split and re-joined?

    • It is presently not possible with the existing engine. I also believe it would open a whole new can of worms for all the existing scenarios to have the ability to do so.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mheard
  • Can loaded units with troops and light artillery & AT guns (lorries, personal carriers and tanks ) be loaded onto rafts, landing craft and boats?

    • No.
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mheard
  • Why are soft skinned venhicles not treated as wrecks when they are destroyed?

    • You'll have to ask the original designers. I'm unsure of what their logic was.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mheard
    Could enermy venhicles such as trucks after an assault be captuered and immedately for use by the captors. Certainly, this was done by the Germans as the American Dodge 2.5 was particularly highly prized.

    While this would be nice, it isn't possible at the moment.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mheard
  • Helicopters to be on the ground before they can load passengers and equipment. You said this was out of scope. I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Is it not possible to include, for example, three helicopter unit 'modes'; Stationary (loading & unloading); hovering at x height above ground; in flight at x + n height above ground? Or, do you mean this is a feature that would have to wait for a Modern Wars Vol I release 1.0+ or V2.0+?


    • No, not at the moment, various modes is not an option.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mheard
    [*}Connected with helicopters would be the inclusion of transport aircraft for both Modern Wars and JTCS. For the latter the inclusion of the C47 and JU52 would be a must I would have thought... Holland '40, Crete '41, Chindits, etc. Albeit these would have to land on landing strip hexes (minimum two contiguous). That bit might be a problem I suppose. However, I don't feel the use of gliders is a reasonable workaround.

    Transport aircraft are not included at this point. Other aircraft are.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mheard
  • Lastly, how do you and others prioritise changes & improvements and what features will be included in a new or existing game? I read with interest the somewhat fraught debate about DCGs and although I am with you on this one how did you come to the decision not to inlcude a DCG feature with Modern Wars Vo1 1.01?



    • The DCG wasn't available in the initial release from Talonsoft and Take 2. The bits and pieces to make it function are not available.

    That being said, I have been building DCG friendly OOB's for most of the countries (particularily for the Middle East game) so when the function is available everything else will be ready.

    All interesting ideas and they'll be added to the various wishlists that are available.

    Jason Petho


    _____________________________


    CS Vietnam

    More info: Facebook & CS Legion

    (in reply to mheard)
    Post #: 4
    RE: Modern Wars Vol 1 - WHEN WILL IT SHIP? & Improvemen... - 9/5/2009 11:29:07 PM   
    Warhorse


    Posts: 5712
    Joined: 5/12/2000
    From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
    Status: offline     		I tinkered with a DCG with a mod I have based on Divided Ground, and got some hopeful results. As Jason said, the groundwork isn't there, and I had to add it all myself, and am not a programmer, that being said, with the programmers help, I truly believe we will see DCG's for Divided Ground in the near future!

    Mike


    _____________________________

    Mike Amos

    Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    www.cslegion.com

    (in reply to Jason Petho)
    Post #: 5
    RE: Modern Wars Vol 1 - Consolidation of wishlists - 9/6/2009 6:44:35 PM   
    mheard

     

    Posts: 25
    Joined: 9/4/2009
    Status: offline     		I have had another trawl around the various posts in the forums and found quite a lot of ideas and wants mentioned in and amongst for JTCS & Modern Wars .

    Is it possible to have a a summary posted of what has been suggested already? Perhaps this could be added to in a 'structured' way broken down by :-

  • Game functions (editors main player, DCG creation).
  • Additional and changed capabilities that involve programming, eg., aircraft to enter enermy occupied hexes.
  • Changes to rules & OOBs , extra units and nations and so forth.
    Could the developers (Jason et al) then let us know how difficult it would be to make the additions/changes and is it worth it. I'm sure scenario designers will have work around ideas and solutions to suggest as well.

    One other thing. Obviously there is an issue with reverse capabilities regarding scenarios. They won't work if certain changes to the game are made. (I refer to my idea of being able to split and rejoin units here). Could scenarios not be time or version stamped in some way? That is only certain functions will apply if a scenario has the stamp (i.e. it is created post the change). If no stamp exists (and therefore no change to existing scenario files will be needed) then the new features don't apply unless the scenario is logically 'recompiled' under the new version of ModWars/JTCS.

    Just a thought what do others think?

    Martin Heard

    (in reply to Warhorse)
    • Post #: 6
    RE: Modern Wars Vol 1 - Consolidation of wishlists - 9/6/2009 10:27:41 PM   
    V22 Osprey


    Posts: 1593
    Joined: 4/8/2008
    From: Corona, CA
    Status: offline     		Well, about soft skinned vehicles not being considered wrecks when destroyed:

    Think about, is an obliterated Willys Jeep really going to block the vision of a whole platoon of men?Let alone a tank?Also moving across wrecks cost more action points, would destroyed Willys jeep really slow down a tank?Especially since the jeep is probably in pieces anyway.

    < Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 9/6/2009 10:28:54 PM >

    _____________________________


    Art by rogueusmc.

    (in reply to mheard)
    Post #: 7
    RE: Modern Wars Vol 1 - Consolidation of wishlists - 9/7/2009 12:56:45 AM   
    mheard

     

    Posts: 25
    Joined: 9/4/2009
    Status: offline     		I take V22 Osprey's point about the the Willy's jeep being too small an impedence to sight or movement to a tank.

    However, I've always taken the flames and smoke from wrecks that are impeding the line of sight and not the wrecks in themselves. A burning jeep would do this albeit for a short time span. What is definitely unrealistic to me is if you shoot up a column of loaded trucks there is no evidence. Come on, look at any photos taken of the aftermath of air attack on trucks and similar vehicles say at the Falaise Gap and in the Gulf War - if that's not wreckage I don't know what is.

    A jeep, kubelwagen, etc. can be exlcuded from the wreck creation but not trucks. Yes, these can be cleared quicker presumably than tanks or APVs but they still burn and they still impede sight and movement.

    Have I convinced anyone? Trucks and the like should count as wrecks when destroyed.

    Martin Heard

    (in reply to V22 Osprey)
    Post #: 8
    RE: Modern Wars Vol 1 - Consolidation of wishlists - 9/7/2009 1:29:45 AM   
    V22 Osprey


    Posts: 1593
    Joined: 4/8/2008
    From: Corona, CA
    Status: offline     		Actually, I agree about trucks.Trucks I think are big enough to the point that if there are quite a few wrecks, it could block line of sight.Maybe, a rule like every 2 destroyed trucks=1 wreck.I also agree that in war, you always see destroyed and crashed trucks, and they would provide some kind of impedance on an army, especially on roads.

    < Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 9/7/2009 1:31:53 AM >

    _____________________________


    Art by rogueusmc.

    (in reply to mheard)
    Post #: 9
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