PT Boats are... not that awesome.

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

PT Boats are... not that awesome.

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> PT Boats are... not that awesome.

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 7:41:20 AM

moose1999

Posts: 788
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline

I've had 7 major PT boat attacks since the patch and in all of them the PT boat TFs evaded combat.
The TFs were all set on direct route, absolute threat tolerance level, 1 reaction and with very good, very aggressive commanders.
All attacks were against warships, all in ocean hexes (adjacent to coast hexes) and all in reasonable weather (no storms).
Only 2 of them were daytime attacks.

So I guess the PT boats don't rule the waves post-patch...

I don't mind the changes, the PTs were overpowered pre-patch, but one time I caught two CVs and 3 destroyers near Darwin with a force of 13 PT boats in the middle of a calm night.
I sure would have liked to see them at least take a swing at the underescorted carriers...!
But they instantly evaded combat and a golden opportunity was missed.
Another time I caught two BBs, 1 CA and 2 destroyers off Pearl (what on earth were they doing there...! Well, for one thing, sinking an Air-transport TF of mine with 4 Catalina squadrons

!). Night-time, 80% moonlight. Again not as much as a token effort from the PTs - they ran away immediately.

Anybody else seen similar drastic changes with PT boats?
Or am I just on a bad roll...

_____________________________

regards,

Briny

Post #: 1

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 7:51:09 AM

Kull

Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman

All attacks were against warships, all in ocean hexes (adjacent to coast hexes) and all in reasonable weather (no storms).

See if you get similar results taking on Transport TFs in shallow/coastal hexes.

(in reply to moose1999)

Post #: 2

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 7:58:22 AM

moose1999

Posts: 788
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline

Yeah, I would expect to have better results against soft targets.
But I haven't had one of these yet, unfortunately.
But it seems like attacks on warship-heavy TFs are pretty much gone post-patch.

_____________________________

regards,

Briny

(in reply to Kull)

Post #: 3

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 9:23:57 AM

John Lansford

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline

Against fast warships PT boats will have trouble getting into position to attack. Vs transports, though, they are still very effective. I've had similar results as you have when encountering combat TF's, but if you send them after unloading transports or those in a harbor you'll get better results.

BTW, why were you shipping PBY's anywhere? They can fly to just about any base on the map by themselves!

(in reply to moose1999)

Post #: 4

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 9:30:06 AM

tigercub

Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline

Good so its fixed!

Tiger!

_____________________________

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life

(in reply to John Lansford)

Post #: 5

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 10:33:10 AM

medicff

Posts: 710
Joined: 9/11/2004
From: WPB, Florida
Status: offline

PT boats are less of impact now. Still can use them but usually wont encounter warships or transports with heavy escort now even at night. I have had some success in encounters vs light warships/escorts of DD or smaller with some sinkings, not near as many though.

I also lose more PT's than before to combat during the encounter.

(in reply to moose1999)

Post #: 6

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 10:36:58 AM

moose1999

Posts: 788
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

BTW, why were you shipping PBY's anywhere?� They can fly to just about any base on the map by themselves!

They were from Kodiak.
I couldn't see any other way to get them to the South Pacific where they were sorely needed.
Just wanted to get them to Pearl and then let them island-jump from there.
But then these two idiot BBs show up and ruin everything.

This is the last time I put all my eggs in one TF, though.

_____________________________

regards,

Briny

(in reply to John Lansford)

Post #: 7

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 2:35:35 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline

Excellent! I consider this fixed then. PT boats IRL didn't do much against IJN warships.

Against transports, barges, etc, though they were effective, and if that's the same in AE, kudos

_____________________________

(in reply to moose1999)

Post #: 8

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 2:46:01 PM

John Lansford

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

BTW, why were you shipping PBY's anywhere?� They can fly to just about any base on the map by themselves!

They were from Kodiak.
I couldn't see any other way to get them to the South Pacific where they were sorely needed.
Just wanted to get them to Pearl and then let them island-jump from there.
But then these two idiot BBs show up and ruin everything.

This is the last time I put all my eggs in one TF, though.

Hmmm, Kodiak to Anchorage to Seattle to SF to Pearl is still faster than loading them in a ship and sending it to Pearl. I rarely, if ever, put my PBY's on a ship; their range is just too great to need that.

(in reply to moose1999)

Post #: 9

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 2:54:18 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

Seems fine to me...

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to John Lansford)

Post #: 10

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 3:38:13 PM

SuluSea

Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline

PTs seem just about right right now. Good to see this was patched up.

I can't remember the book because I sold it but I read in the Solomons�some skippers�would use ash cans�and roll them off the back�just incase a DD got on their heels. I know it doesn't pertain to this game but just thought I'd share a note on just how resourceful these guys were.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 9/3/2009 3:58:07 PM >

_____________________________

"There�s no such thing as a bitter person who keeps the bitterness to himself.� ~ Erwin Lutzer

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 11

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 7:51:40 PM

FOW

Posts: 499
Joined: 11/6/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman

They were from Kodiak.
I couldn't see any other way to get them to the South Pacific where they were sorely needed.
Just wanted to get them to Pearl and then let them island-jump from there.
But then these two idiot BBs show up and ruin everything.

This is the last time I put all my eggs in one TF, though.

There is away.
You can now 'disband' PT Boats back to the pool. Several days (more likely a week) later they appear in the pool so you can recreate them elsewhere.
Rather than sail my PH ones to SOPAC I returned them to the pool and then later recreated them at PagoPago (had to have shipped sufficient supplies there first of course).

(in reply to moose1999)

Post #: 12

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 7:57:56 PM

medicff

Posts: 710
Joined: 9/11/2004
From: WPB, Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FOW

quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman

They were from Kodiak.
I couldn't see any other way to get them to the South Pacific where they were sorely needed.
Just wanted to get them to Pearl and then let them island-jump from there.
But then these two idiot BBs show up and ruin everything.

This is the last time I put all my eggs in one TF, though.

There is away.
You can now 'disband' PT Boats back to the pool. Several days (more likely a week) later they appear in the pool so you can recreate them elsewhere.
Rather than sail my PH ones to SOPAC I returned them to the pool and then later recreated them at PagoPago (had to have shipped sufficient supplies there first of course).

Ok I have look at screen to check for disband but never can find it. What are the requirements to disband back into pool?

thanks

< Message edited by medicff -- 9/3/2009 7:59:40 PM >

(in reply to FOW)

Post #: 13

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 8:03:40 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

PTs seem just about right right now. Good to see this was patched up.

I can't remember the book because I sold it but I read in the Solomons�some skippers�would use ash cans�and roll them off the back�just incase a DD got on their heels. I know it doesn't pertain to this game but just thought I'd share a note on just how resourceful these guys were.

_____________________________

(in reply to SuluSea)

Post #: 14

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 8:33:44 PM

FOW

Posts: 499
Joined: 11/6/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: medicff

Ok I have look at screen to check for disband but never can find it. What are the requirements to disband back into pool?

thanks

With PT Boats disbanded in port, select a PT from the list of active ships. On right side of ship display 2/3rds way down, between victory value and upgrade option is button to 'Return to pool'

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by FOW -- 9/3/2009 8:41:26 PM >

(in reply to medicff)

Post #: 15

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 8:39:43 PM

Fallschirmjager

Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline

Probably the biggest nerf is the .50 cal M2
They are worthless now. They penetrate but do next to no damage and do not start fires at all.
Even if your PT force catches a thin skinned vessel they hardly damage it since their MGs do nothing.

(in reply to FOW)

Post #: 16

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 8:42:32 PM

FOW

Posts: 499
Joined: 11/6/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

Probably the biggest nerf is the .50 cal M2
They are worthless now. They penetrate but do next to no damage and do not start fires at all.
Even if your PT force catches a thin skinned vessel they hardly damage it since their MGs do nothing.

You need to wait until they upgrade to include 20mm and 40mm guns.

I have noticed that my PTs even flee from porrly escorted AKs in base hexes at night

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)

Post #: 17

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 8:47:25 PM

Fallschirmjager

Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FOW

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

Probably the biggest nerf is the .50 cal M2
They are worthless now. They penetrate but do next to no damage and do not start fires at all.
Even if your PT force catches a thin skinned vessel they hardly damage it since their MGs do nothing.

You need to wait until they upgrade to include 20mm and 40mm guns.

I have noticed that my PTs even flee from porrly escorted AKs in base hexes at night

A twin .50 mount would tear up the superstucture of a DD or transport pretty good if the distance was close and it could hit with long sustained bursts. The .50 cal is an extremly powerful bullet and the tracer ammunition would also probably start some fires.
I fear that the gun was probably nerfed a little too much in the patch.

(in reply to FOW)

Post #: 18

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 8:56:08 PM

88l71

Posts: 218
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline

Yeah, PLEASE don't make the B-25 gun-ship version useless now...

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)

Post #: 19

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 9:55:01 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

A twin .50 mount would tear up the superstucture of a DD or transport pretty good if the distance was close and it could hit with long sustained bursts. The .50 cal is an extremly powerful bullet and the tracer ammunition would also probably start some fires.
I fear that the gun was probably nerfed a little too much in the patch.

Maybe, but that's pretty dangerous pulling into .50 cal range of a DD, isn't it? I don't recall PT's IRL wrecking havoc with .50cals.

PT's should be able to bust barges still though, since that's one thing they were very good at IRL.

_____________________________

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)

Post #: 20

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 10:08:18 PM

Dili

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline

The problem with a 0.5 and a DD is that you need to be too close and will not make much damage. Penetrating doesn't mean big damage since 0.5 bullets doesn't explode.

quote:

I can't remember the book because I sold it but I read in the Solomons some skippers would use ash cans and roll them off the back just incase a DD got on their heels. I know it doesn't pertain to this game but just thought I'd share a note on just how resourceful these guys were.

All italian PT's had depth charges to do that since WW1.

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 21

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/3/2009 10:13:51 PM

Fallschirmjager

Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

The problem with a 0.5 and a DD is that you need to be too close and will not make much damage. Penetrating doesn't mean big damage since 0.5 bullets doesn't explode.

quote:

I can't remember the book because I sold it but I read in the Solomons some skippers would use ash cans and roll them off the back just incase a DD got on their heels. I know it doesn't pertain to this game but just thought I'd share a note on just how resourceful these guys were.

All italian PT's had depth charges to do that since WW1.

But fires and crew casulties would be horrific. And I think you guys are overstating a ships ability to hit a 77 foot target moving at 35+ knots with a 4.7" or 5" shell.
I am not saying PTs should be used against DD's. But if the game happens to put them up against one another at close range the DD should take some significant damage from a PT with high crew EXP. Dual .50 mounts would tear the superstructure of a DD to shreds.
Against a slow moving transport the PT could make slashing attacks or simply circle it's prey and probably mow everyone topside down in a hail of .50 cal bullets.

(in reply to Dili)

Post #: 22

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/4/2009 9:37:18 PM

Panther Bait

Posts: 654
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline

I am thinking that concentrating fire on a DD from a .50 cal from 500-700 yards (about 1/3 of a mile) when shooting from a PT boat moving at 35+ knots in a even light chop is probably not that easy. Add in the other guys shooting back at you, and it probably gets worse. Make it nighttime, and it probably gets impossible.

_____________________________

When you shoot at a destroyer and miss, it's like hit'in a wildcat in the ass with a banjo.

Nathan Dogan, USS Gurnard

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)

Post #: 23

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/6/2009 6:08:09 PM

Dobey455

Posts: 445
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

Yeah but Destroyers have HMG's too. (or a light AA equivalent in the 0.5 cal - 20mm range) and probably far more of them than a PT boat.

< Message edited by Dobey -- 9/6/2009 6:10:13 PM >

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)

Post #: 24

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/6/2009 6:24:25 PM

Jones944

Posts: 153
Joined: 3/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: medicff

quote:

ORIGINAL: FOW

quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman

They were from Kodiak.
I couldn't see any other way to get them to the South Pacific where they were sorely needed.
Just wanted to get them to Pearl and then let them island-jump from there.
But then these two idiot BBs show up and ruin everything.

This is the last time I put all my eggs in one TF, though.

There is away.
You can now 'disband' PT Boats back to the pool. Several days (more likely a week) later they appear in the pool so you can recreate them elsewhere.
Rather than sail my PH ones to SOPAC I returned them to the pool and then later recreated them at PagoPago (had to have shipped sufficient supplies there first of course).

Ok I have look at screen to check for disband but never can find it. What are the requirements to disband back into pool?

thanks

Only PT boats can disband back to the pool. Not the Catalina squadrons that were being transported as mentioned in the original post.

(in reply to medicff)

Post #: 25

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/7/2009 2:51:06 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

quote:

ORIGINAL: FOW

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

Probably the biggest nerf is the .50 cal M2
They are worthless now. They penetrate but do next to no damage and do not start fires at all.
Even if your PT force catches a thin skinned vessel they hardly damage it since their MGs do nothing.

You need to wait until they upgrade to include 20mm and 40mm guns.

I have noticed that my PTs even flee from porrly escorted AKs in base hexes at night

A twin .50 mount would tear up the superstucture of a DD or transport pretty good if the distance was close and it could hit with long sustained bursts. The .50 cal is an extremly powerful bullet and the tracer ammunition would also probably start some fires.
I fear that the gun was probably nerfed a little too much in the patch.

Not at high speeds or in any kind of seas. All mounts on PTs were manually sighted. Have you ever been in a 50 foot craft going 30 knots and making hard manuevers. (Well, me neither to be honest

) No way you can hold a target for any length of time. Plus a sustained burst at close range at a DD was going to most likely be rewarded by sustained burts from multiple light and heavy automatic weapons. Lets see, plywood vs half inch steel.....I think we have a winner

50 cal could shoot up a merchant superstructure a bit but the steel is still there and fairly thick. Might set a fire or two but there is really very little to burn on the upper deck of a merchant ship. Against motor launches and barges, that is another story.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)

Post #: 26

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/7/2009 4:30:38 PM

Dili

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

I am not saying PTs should be used against DD's. But if the game happens to put them up against one another at close range the DD should take some significant damage from a PT with high crew EXP.

Germans sunk 11 destroyers with PT's, one of them was American in Mediterranean. The British prefered lighter guns like 6pdr as a gun to face PT's.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 27

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/8/2009 1:48:23 AM

RCNVR

Posts: 13
Joined: 8/19/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
Status: offline

Remember that PT boats, MTBs and E boats (or S boats) relied primarily on torpedoes against larger surface vessels. They would usually turn and run after firing the torpedoes. MGBs were a different story but they were mainly to fight smaller ships (trawlers, schooners, barges & coastal vessels) and enemy torpedo boats. The later MGBs were fairly well gunned 2 57mm (6lb) 2 20mm cannon, 4 50cal and 4 303.

(in reply to Dili)

Post #: 28

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/8/2009 5:45:40 AM

eMonticello

Posts: 525
Joined: 3/15/2002
Status: offline

After the Marine SBD's sunk the supporting Light Cruisers earlier in the day, LCDR Gilbert (A careful and promising officer[Leadership 71; Inspiration 44; Naval 78) and his intrepid PT Boat Squadron engaged the remnants of the enemy transport fleet during the night...

---------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Nov 01, 42
Morning Air attack on TF, near Tassafaronga at 113,137

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 16
SBD-3 Dauntless x 30

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CL Kashima, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Kashii, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
xAK Yodogawa Maru
xAK Toa Maru
PC Ch 11, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
----------------------------------------------------------
2nd Morning Air attack on TF, near Tassafaronga at 113,137

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 16
SBD-3 Dauntless x 30

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CL Kashima, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Kashii, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
xAK Yodogawa Maru
xAK Toa Maru
PC Ch 11, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Attack: Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Tassafaronga at 113,137

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 16
SBD-3 Dauntless x 30

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
CL Kashima, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Kashii, Bomb hits 6, and is sunk
xAK Yodogawa Maru
PC Ch 10
DD Hatsukaze
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Nov 02, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Tassafaronga at 113,137, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
PC Ch 16, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Soyo Maru, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk

Allied Ships
PT-60
PT-61
PT-64
PT-66
PT-109
PT-114

Japanese ground losses:
372 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 49 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 13 disabled

Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Japanese TF suspends loading operations and begins to get underway
Reduced sighting due to 25% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 25% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
PT-114 engages PC Ch 16 at 1,000 yards
PT-114 engages xAK Soyo Maru at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
PT-114 engages PC Ch 16 at 2,000 yards
PC Ch 16 sunk by PT-66 at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
PT-114 engages xAK Soyo Maru at 3,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
xAK Soyo Maru sunk by PT-114 at 2,000 yards
Combat ends with last Japanese ship sunk...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2nd Attack: Night Time Surface Combat, near Tassafaronga at 113,137, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
PC Ch 18, Shell hits 17, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Yamahagi Maru, Shell hits 5

Allied Ships
PT-60
PT-61
PT-64
PT-66
PT-109
PT-114

Japanese ground losses:
9 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Japanese TF suspends loading operations and begins to get underway
Reduced sighting due to 25% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 25% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
PT-114 engages PC Ch 18 at 1,000 yards
PT-114 engages xAK Yamahagi Maru at 1,000 yards
PC Ch 18 engages PT-66 at 1,000 yards
PC Ch 18 engages PT-64 at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
PT-114 engages xAK Yamahagi Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-64 engages PC Ch 18 at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
PC Ch 18 engages PT-64 at 3,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
PT-114 engages PC Ch 18 at 2,000 yards
PT-61 engages PC Ch 18 at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
PC Ch 18 engages PT-66 at 3,000 yards
Task forces break off...

_____________________________

Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example. -- Pudd'nhead Wilson

(in reply to moose1999)

Post #: 29

RE: PT Boats are... not that awesome. - 9/8/2009 10:18:57 PM

Swayin