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Can someone please explain this? - 9/16/2009 3:55:23 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I can´t for the life of me understand how this is even remotly possible?

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 20, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Kuching at 58,88, Range 30,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAK Azuma Maru
xAK Katuragi Maru
xAK Arimasan Maru
xAK Imizu Maru
xAK Asahisan Maru
xAK Seian Maru
xAK Tamashima Maru
xAK Okuyo Maru
xAK Seikai Maru
xAK Keihuku Maru
xAK Tohuku Maru
xAK Hokumai Maru
xAK Hokutai Maru
xAK Hukuzyu Maru
xAK Argun Maru
xAK Ryuun Maru
xAK Sugiyama Maru
xAK Tyoko Maru
xAK Hakusika Maru
xAK Kinryu Maru
xAK Hiyama Maru
xAK Chojun Maru
xAK Hokutatsu Maru
xAK Izumo Maru
xAKL Koyu Maru
xAK Yamura Maru
xAK Yamakuni Maru
xAKL Bokuyo Maru
xAKL Buyo Maru
xAKL Kamishima Maru
xAKL Keizan Maru
xAKL Taiyo Maru
xAKL Tama Maru
xAKL Suez Maru
xAKL Gyokurei Maru
xAK Kinrei Maru
xAKL Tientsin Maru
xAKL Shun Yuan

Allied Ships
CL Java
CL De Ruyter
CL Tromp
DD Banckert
DD Van Nes
DD Witte de With
DD Evertsen
DD Kortenaer
DD Piet Hein



Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!...
Japanese TF begins to get underway...
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards...
Range closes to 25,000 yards......
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape...
Japanese Transport TF evades combat...

How can a huge convoy consisting of almost 40 ships manage to evade a surface fleet capable of doing atleast 15-20 knots more? That in clear weather with maximum visibility?! Not once but three times (didn´t post the two other encounters). I would understand if many ships could escape during the battle but for all of them to completly evade? Seems a bit weird to me...
Post #: 1
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/16/2009 4:18:07 PM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3119
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline 		It can happen… some real bad dice rolls, and we all know that anything can happen in real-life.

But I wouldn’t be buying any lotto tickets, or doing any hazardous work if I was you my friend, as I don’t think you’re lucks in at present.


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Post #: 2
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/16/2009 4:33:41 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		The Dutch thought they were all warships.  Or had a report of carrier planes or an IJN battleship group closing in?

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Post #: 3
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/16/2009 4:40:51 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I can´t for the life of me understand how this is even remotly possible?

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 20, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Kuching at 58,88, Range 30,000 Yards

Trimmed...



Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!...
Japanese TF begins to get underway...
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards...
Range closes to 25,000 yards......
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape...
Japanese Transport TF evades combat...

How can a huge convoy consisting of almost 40 ships manage to evade a surface fleet capable of doing atleast 15-20 knots more? That in clear weather with maximum visibility?! Not once but three times (didn´t post the two other encounters). I would understand if many ships could escape during the battle but for all of them to completly evade? Seems a bit weird to me...


A stern chase is a long chase, and 12.5 nautical miles is a long ways to spot someone who is trying to sneak out of the room at night. A SAG usually cruised at about 15 knots, which meant that contacting the convoy was a hit or miss proposition. For the flavour, look at the after action reports for the surface engagements in the South Pacific.

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(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 4
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/16/2009 4:42:00 PM   
emasino


Posts: 9
Joined: 4/23/2008
From: Lehigh Valley, PA
Status: offline 		I don't see in the report that the allies spotted the convoy.

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Post #: 5
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/16/2009 5:49:49 PM   
Oliver Heindorf


Posts: 1911
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Hamburg/Deutschland
Status: offline 		the dutchies didnt spot the japanese. the dutchies just had no clue. makes sense as the japanese hat the better binoculars at this time. and the dutch ships had no radar at this time too.

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Post #: 6
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/16/2009 6:17:17 PM   
dorjun driver


Posts: 641
Joined: 4/20/2006
From: Port Townsend: hex 210,51
Status: offline 		It might have been one of those "turkey trots to water" padding thingies.

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Post #: 7
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/16/2009 6:55:38 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		The key here is the Japanese were actually unspotted and had a report that the Dutch SAG was closing in. They went the right direction to evade, the Dutch didn't spot them, and the encounter was over.

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Post #: 8
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/16/2009 7:50:30 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Why did the Japanese admiral who totally demolished a TF of American cruisers at Savo Island in August '42 then retire rather than moving foward to anhiliate the unprotected American transports between Tulagi and Guadalcanal? Because he didn't realize the American carriers had also retired, so he feared a carrier strike the next morning. But in AE that would look terrible - the Jap player would be beside himself as his totally victorious ships pulled back toward Rabaul. Weird, inexplicable, awful things happen with FOW and human error and misjudgment. So the fact that weird, inexplicable, awful things happen in the game is just how things ought to be (as long as they reflect random chance, as appears to be the case here, rather some permanent bug).

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/16/2009 7:53:00 PM >

(in reply to Oliver Heindorf)
Post #: 9
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/17/2009 4:36:06 AM   
DeriKuk


Posts: 359
Joined: 8/2/2005
From: Alberta
Status: offline 		Your TF commander does not have the god-like, top-down image that you have.

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Post #: 10
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/17/2009 5:16:01 AM   
jazman

 

Posts: 369
Joined: 1/20/2007
From: Crush Depth
Status: offline 		I just had the three Hong Kong British DDs run across a Jap landing at Miri, Borneo, and the Jap TF evaded. Bummer! As the combat animation was starting I was drooling.


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Post #: 11
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/17/2009 5:49:50 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Well, I missed the fact that my cruisers didn´t spot the jap TF. But as I said this was only one out of three encounters. Here is the two others. I cut out all the ship names but its the same TF.

Day Time Surface Combat, near Kuching at 58,88, Range 30,000 Yards


Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!...
Japanese TF suspends unloading operations and begins to get underway...
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 30,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 30,000 yards...
Range closes to 25,000 yards......
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape...
Japanese Transport TF evades combat...

Day Time Surface Combat, near Kuching at 58,88, Range 30,000 Yards

Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!...
Japanese TF suspends unloading operations and begins to get underway...
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 30,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 30,000 yards...
Range closes to 25,000 yards......
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape...

Both times my TF actually spot the Jap TF. I find it a bit unlikly that my crusisers doing almost 35 knots can´t chase down atleast some of the merchants doing perhaps 10-12 knots?


(in reply to jazman)
Post #: 12
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/17/2009 8:17:29 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf

the dutchies didnt spot the japanese. the dutchies just had no clue. makes sense as the japanese hat the better binoculars at this time. and the dutch ships had no radar at this time too.



I doubt that Japanese merchants were better in spotting than Dutch warships.

It still ins´t impossible though that a convoy get´s away undamaged I guess. Just depends on the circumstances.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 9/17/2009 8:19:39 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/17/2009 11:26:05 AM   
Streptokok

 

Posts: 159
Joined: 8/30/2009
Status: offline 		All in one turn, Imperial commander of the TF was decorated after saving amph. TF
Allied TF chased amph. TF from Tarakan to Jesselton and Japs evaded and escaped:

quote:

NAVAL MOVEMENT PHASE
Task Force 143 encounters enemy Task Force at 70 , 92
Amphibious TF 143 withdrawing to Sandakan after combat
Task Force 143 encounters enemy Task Force at 70 , 91
Amphibious TF 143 withdrawing to Sandakan after combat
Task Force 307 encounters enemy Task Force at 99 , 133
Task Force 143 encounters enemy Task Force at 71 , 90
Amphibious TF 143 withdrawing to Sandakan after combat
Task Force 143 encounters enemy Task Force at 71 , 89
Amphibious TF 143 withdrawing to Sandakan after combat
Task Force 143 encounters enemy Task Force at 71 , 88
Amphibious TF 143 withdrawing to Cam Ranh Bay after combat
Task Force 143 encounters enemy Task Force at 70 , 88
Amphibious TF 143 withdrawing to Cam Ranh Bay after combat
Task Force 143 encounters enemy Task Force at 70 , 87
Amphibious TF 143 withdrawing to Cam Ranh Bay after combat
Task Force 143 encounters enemy Task Force at 70 , 86
Amphibious TF 143 withdrawing to Cam Ranh Bay after combat
Task Force 143 encounters enemy Task Force at 69 , 85
Amphibious TF 143 withdrawing to Cam Ranh Bay after combat



quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Tawi Tawi at 71,90, Range 30,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAK Meisho Maru
xAK Midori Maru
PB Nako Maru #2

Allied Ships
DD Van Nes
DD Evertsen



Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Japanese Amphibious TF evades combat


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Tawi Tawi at 71,89, Range 30,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAK Meisho Maru
xAK Midori Maru
PB Nako Maru #2

Allied Ships
DD Van Nes
DD Evertsen



Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Japanese Amphibious TF evades combat


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Sandakan at 71,88, Range 30,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAK Meisho Maru
xAK Midori Maru
PB Nako Maru #2

Allied Ships
DD Van Nes
DD Evertsen



Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Japanese Amphibious TF evades combat


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Sandakan at 70,88, Range 30,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAK Meisho Maru
xAK Midori Maru
PB Nako Maru #2

Allied Ships
DD Van Nes
DD Evertsen



Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Japanese Amphibious TF evades combat


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Sandakan at 70,87, Range 30,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAK Meisho Maru
xAK Midori Maru
PB Nako Maru #2

Allied Ships
DD Van Nes
DD Evertsen



Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Japanese Amphibious TF evades combat


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Kudat at 70,86, Range 30,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAK Meisho Maru
xAK Midori Maru
PB Nako Maru #2

Allied Ships
DD Van Nes
DD Evertsen



Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Japanese Amphibious TF evades combat


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Banggi at 69,85, Range 30,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAK Meisho Maru
xAK Midori Maru
PB Nako Maru #2

Allied Ships
DD Van Nes
DD Evertsen



Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 30,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Japanese Amphibious TF evades combat


_____________________________

"No plan survives contact with the enemy."
- Field Marshal Helmuth von Moltke

"Nuts!"
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Post #: 14
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/17/2009 6:29:36 PM   
Sonny II

 

Posts: 2878
Joined: 1/12/2007
Status: offline 		Are these reports from Patch 1?

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Post #: 15
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/17/2009 7:42:52 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The key here is the Japanese were actually unspotted and had a report that the Dutch SAG was closing in. They went the right direction to evade, the Dutch didn't spot them, and the encounter was over.



Actually there is a real problem with this report. Forty Japanese merchantmen suddenly trying to raise anchor and evade at maximum speed are going to raise a cloud of funnel smoke that could be spotted at 25 miles, let alone 25,000 yards. Unless we are to believe they were all diesel powered....

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 16
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/17/2009 7:50:41 PM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline 		With all that black smoke, visibility would be obscured.  All the allies would know was that there's a bigass smokescreen up ahead and who knows what that commander thought lay beyond the big black morass.  Prolly enough to scare him away.

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RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/17/2009 7:51:40 PM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline 		What's the tf commanders skill ratings?

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RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/18/2009 3:14:00 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
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From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

With all that black smoke, visibility would be obscured. All the allies would know was that there's a bigass smokescreen up ahead and who knows what that commander thought lay beyond the big black morass. Prolly enough to scare him away.



Actually "smoke on the horizon" is generally the first thing lookouts report. After that any good TF commander will close the range to get a visual on the source of the smoke. That's how the battle of Jutland got started.

(in reply to AcePylut)
Post #: 19
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/18/2009 3:28:45 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
Aren't those merchies gonna scatter like dropped marbles? Sure they are.... yeah, they probably should have overtaken some of them and sunk them, but I don't think the game models that concept. It would be good if it did, but those are high hopes at this point.


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Post #: 20
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/18/2009 3:53:34 AM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3119
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From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Yeah, they probably should have overtaken some of them and sunk them.



Only ruthless Martian Raiders sunk unarmed merchies.

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When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

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Post #: 21
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/18/2009 6:22:15 AM   
Mynok


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Status: offline
Martian raiders don't sink Jap merchies, but allied ones...sure.


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Post #: 22
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/18/2009 10:36:01 AM   
Streptokok

 

Posts: 159
Joined: 8/30/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonny II

Are these reports from Patch 1?



My reports are from latest official patched version. 1.084?

_____________________________

"No plan survives contact with the enemy."
- Field Marshal Helmuth von Moltke

"Nuts!"
- General Anthony McAuliffe

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Post #: 23
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/18/2009 10:41:38 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		NINJAS!!!

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Post #: 24
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/18/2009 12:35:18 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Aren't those merchies gonna scatter like dropped marbles? Sure they are.... yeah, they probably should have overtaken some of them and sunk them, but I don't think the game models that concept. It would be good if it did, but those are high hopes at this point.




Of course they will TRY to scatter! But remember, they start anchored and unloading against the coast, with the enemy approaching from the sea. That eliminates about 270 degrees worth of "escape routes" to "scatter to". The "action" described is "feasible", but not "plausible". So you are absolutely right that in Daylight the Dutch should have sunk a fair number of them...

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Post #: 25
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/18/2009 1:42:39 PM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1340
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline 		You've got to understand that you are dealing with Dutch warships here...

It is worth noting that there was once in Feb '42 a communique from Abdacom to Pacific C-in-C in response to Nimitz's question 'How good are the Dutch warships?' which went something like :
'Dutch warships excel at only one thing.  They sink faster than anything else we've got!'

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Post #: 26
RE: Can someone please explain this? - 9/18/2009 7:03:33 PM   
Sonny II

 

Posts: 2878
Joined: 1/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Streptokok


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonny II

Are these reports from Patch 1?



My reports are from latest official patched version. 1.084?



Thanks.

(in reply to Streptokok)
Post #: 27
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