RE: Map error

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Map error

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Close Combat Series >> Close Combat: The Longest Day >> Tech Support >> RE: Map error

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Map error - 9/18/2009 6:24:17 AM

squadleader_id

Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline

Hedgerows are crushable elements...so if the dice rolls are good and a tank can climb and plow through a hedgerow...you end up with a cleared patch of hedgerows.
Hedgerows can also be destroyed or crushed when hit by HE shells...and turns into wood rubble.
There was a bug in CC5 though...sometimes hedgerows would explode when a tank drives thorugh them.
Hedgerows are not building elements...so infantry directly on top of hedgerows are standing on the raised ground...not climbing on the hedgerow vegetation (As high as church steeples? Really?

).
Tanks stuck on top of the raised ground of hedgerows and becoming easy prey for ATG and AT Teams are realistic and historic...dunno why this is considered as a bug

.
Also tanks are not stuck on top of hedgerow vegetation...because the vegetation is crushed/cleared when a tank drives over them (crushable elements file).

Shreckie, if the dev team feels so strongly about how hedgerows are represented in the game and decided to code hedgerows differently for new CCTLD maps with the intention to fix unconfirmed CC5 bugs...then why weren't all the hedgerows on the original CC5 maps and also the BO and GJS maps recoded in the "new" way for CCTLD?� Strange decision...and pretty half-assed effort don't you think?

< Message edited by squadleader_id -- 9/18/2009 6:28:11 AM >

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 31

RE: Map error - 9/18/2009 7:29:44 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

Yes I do

That sherman is driving over a hill and hs a Culin device so doesn't belong in this discussion.

(in reply to squadleader_id)

Post #: 32

RE: Map error - 9/18/2009 10:55:36 PM

Senior Drill

Posts: 199
Joined: 11/21/2007
From: Quantico
Status: offline

I still don't understand the reticence for acknowledging that the original CC5 maps used in TLD were not coded correctly in regards to the hedgerows and that they need to be fixed. Any purported bug from the original CC5 that tanks stand out like becons when only 2 meters above the surrounding terrain and within a tree element is spurious at best. It was never a "bug". Those claims were the result of ignorant player observations and well defeated in the forums of the time. Duh, if you are in a two meter tall tank on a mound that is two meters taller than the surrounding terrain, you are going to have greater LOS both coming and going. Becon? Hardly. Present an exposed low angle belly shot to the hedgerow across the field? Certainly.

There is no "crashing down the other side" or manuevering on top of hedgerows. Even with original CC5 there was enough flexibility within the Elements file to make passible hedgerows and impassible hedgerows. With the expanded Elements file for TLD, there can be several spins and flavors for element quarks. I know, because I am the one that added most of them back into the file way back in CCRAF days. A stairstep of three elevation terrains, one at +1 over the "flat field", a center at +1.5 or +2 with a hedgerow tree or bocage element on it and a +1 to step down the other side produces no "crash down". That's 18 pixels worth of terrain elevation covered by a tree graphic that is over 28 pixels wide.

A wall of +2 terrain elevation defeats AI pathing without a determined ordering sequence by the player. That's three element tiles that would provide an LOS block to the TLD maps that existed in CC5, stopping the unrealistic rifle fire though a hedgerow to the treeline on the other side of the field, allow movement along the road parallel to a hedgerow without taking fire (more realism) at Sneak for +1 hedgerow elevations and Move Fast for +2 (like it was in '44).

The faults in the TLD original CC5 maps have been identified and justified. Solutions have been outlined. What is the real issue here? Is it that there simply is no money available to pay anyone to spend the time to fix the mistakes? Ok, that's understandable if that is the case. If it is, just say so. No shame there; It might just be a lean business environment.

If we, the dissatisfied players, were to present a set of recoded maps for "official" review and testing that gains the blessings of the high priests, would that be enough to justify a third patch? Or at least be a sponsored and recommended download? We got the bodies and a variable time frame. It could happen with some support and guidence.

'Course, ya'll could jes get off yer collective asses and git 'er done.

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 33

RE: Map error - 9/18/2009 11:26:52 PM

squadleader_id

Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline

Thanks for the long and detailed technical explaination, Drill.
I'm still a bit confused though...
"New coding of hedgerows without raised elevation" on new CCTLD maps are the ones that needs fixing, right?
I don't think there were any probs with hedgerows coding (with raised elevation) on the original CC5 maps (also GJS and BO maps).
Another thing...what about the strange new CCTLD LOS glitches of firing across hedgerows that weren't present in CC5?

(in reply to Senior Drill)

Post #: 34

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 12:40:39 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be recoded.

I am expressing my opinion on how they should be coded

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 35

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 1:00:24 AM

Senior Drill

Posts: 199
Joined: 11/21/2007
From: Quantico
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

Thanks for the long and detailed technical explaination, Drill.

You mean "long winded and pedantically detailed technical explanation", don't you. Can't help it, it is just the way I am. But, yer welcome.

quote:

I'm still a bit confused though...

Join the club. As the newest member, it is your turn to refill the ice bucket.

quote:

"New coding of hedgerows without raised elevation" on new CCTLD maps are the ones that needs fixing, right?

Yes. Those are the ones that are seemingly transparent to rifle and MG fire. Raised terrain elevation of the of hedgerow elements would provide an LOS block from the ajoining fields. If it is bocage country, the farthest you should be able to see from a hedgerow is the crest of the next hedgerow, with the possible execption of that exampled church steeple. It should be the terrain elevation that provides the majority of the LOS blocking, not the terrain element. In TLD one can shoot through at least one and in certain locations two hedgerows to the treeline across the second field. Only in Kansas. Not in Normandy.

quote:

I don't think there were any probs with hedgerows coding (with raised elevation) on the original CC5 maps (also GJS and BO maps).

I agree. Other than the exploding hedgerows, which was an error in the Crush To or Rubble To column of the elements file, the elevated terrain provided the LOS blocking that allowed players to mass behind large hedgerows within mere meters of enemy troops on the other side. Something that is impossible to do in TLD.

quote:

Another thing...what about the strange new CCTLD LOS glitches of firing across hedgerows that weren't present in CC5?

Addressed above. It all boils down to the lack of an elevation LOS block because the trees are set on flat, or same elevation, ground that is the same as the field elements they are next to. One could create and define 10, 20 or 30 different bocage or hedge elements with varying degress of LOS blocking or transparency: Heavy, Medium, Light, Heavy Barren, Medium Barren, Light Barren, Snow Heavy Barren, Snow Medium Barren .... ect and ad naseum, each with a varying degree of LOS cumulative blocking properties. But why bother?!!!! Simply raising the terrain element's elevation by the allowed .5 meter increments allows the map coder to a wealth of possibilities with just the few hedgerow and bocage elements:

A traversalbe slope with light cover and low probablility of immobilzation.
A traversalbe slope with light cover and high probablility of immobilzation.
A non-traversalbe slope with light cover for tall units (big tanks).
A non-traversalbe slope with heavy cover for tall units (big tanks).
A breachable section of hedgerow (a crushable to or rubble to hedgerow element) atop a .5 or 1 meter or 1.5 meter terrain elevation...

... And many, many more.

Maybe another should be added: For those that long for the pre-patch CC5 days, a mined (exploding) hedgerow element on an enticing potential breach only .5 meters tall. The tools are already in place for TLD maps to replicate CC5, BO and GJS maps, it just needs an effort by the St3 boys to make it happen.

< Message edited by Senior Drill -- 9/19/2009 1:06:03 AM >

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

(in reply to squadleader_id)

Post #: 36

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 1:08:33 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

squid suggests there is an issue with seeing through hedgerows because of their height.

Height doesn't effect being able to see through .. only over.

See pic below the original map has varying heights coded into the hedgerow also higher grey blips mixed into the lower black sections.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 37

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 1:09:46 AM

Senior Drill

Posts: 199
Joined: 11/21/2007
From: Quantico
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be recoded.

I am expressing my opinion on how they should be coded

Pardon me, Andrew, but I believe that you have a stick empacked somewhere. SL and I have been trying to extract it, but you don't seem to want it to budge. Perhaps if we were to rotate it.....

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 38

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 1:21:03 AM

squadleader_id

Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Senior Drill

quote:

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

Another thing...what about the strange new CCTLD LOS glitches of firing across hedgerows that weren't present in CC5?

Addressed above. It all boils down to the lack of an elevation LOS block because the trees are set on flat, or same elevation, ground that is the same as the field elements they are next to. One could create and define 10, 20 or 30 different bocage or hedge elements with varying degress of LOS blocking or transparency: Heavy, Medium, Light, Heavy Barren, Medium Barren, Light Barren, Snow Heavy Barren, Snow Medium Barren .... ect and ad naseum, each with a varying degree of LOS cumulative blocking properties. But why bother?!!!! Simply raising the terrain element's elevation by the allowed .5 meter increments allows the map coder to a wealth of possibilities with just the few hedgerow and bocage elements:

The thing is...there are strange LOS glitches (LOS across multiple hedgerows) on the original maps (with proper hedgerow on elevation coding).
The glitch was reported at CCS (which I can't seem to load at the moment)...IIRC it was reported on La Fiere...a map with original CC5 coding but with different LOS results for CC5 and CCTLD

(in reply to Senior Drill)

Post #: 39

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 1:22:13 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

I wouldn't argue the the point that LOS through the hedgrows is too easy now.

Simply turning on the Can block LOS flag (as in GJS) seems to fix it column AB in elements

< Message edited by Andrew Williams -- 9/19/2009 1:27:49 AM >

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 40

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 1:28:07 AM

squadleader_id

Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

squid suggests there is an issue with seeing through hedgerows because of their height.

Height doesn't effect being able to see through .. only over.

See pic below the original map has varying heights coded into the hedgerow also higher grey blips mixed into the lower black sections.

Nope...the issue is with hedgerows on the new maps placed/coded on level ground...and not on raised ground/higher elevation.
The actual hedgerow element itself doesn't block LOS (see elements file), LOS is blocked by the raised ground.
Drill already explained this in detail actually.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 41

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 1:39:32 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

GJS has LOS blocked in my GJS elements file and it seems to deal with the LOS issue very neatly.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Andrew Williams -- 9/19/2009 1:45:34 AM >

(in reply to squadleader_id)

Post #: 42

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 1:48:00 AM

squadleader_id

Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline

True but this only fixes hedgerow LOS issues for long-range engagements.
FYI, hedgerows on GJS maps are coded on elevated ground like original CC5 maps.

The problem is when teams are adjacent to each other separated by a hedgerow...they unrealistically have LOS and can shoot at each other

.
With the presence of raised ground...one team will need to actually enter the hedgerow and be on top of the embankment to get LOS to enemy teams on the other side.
You can turn on "block all LOS" for hedgerows of course...but this is very unrealistic

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 43

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 1:51:39 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

The problem you describe seems to be addressed by the solution I have given.

tested and LOS is cut teams on either side of the hedgerow can't shoot at each other... LOS is open if one you crawl into the hedgerow.

(in reply to squadleader_id)

Post #: 44

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 1:57:06 AM

squadleader_id

Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

The problem you describe seems to be addressed by the solution I have given.

tested and LOS is cut teams on either side of the hedgerow can't shoot at each other... LOS is open if one you crawl into the hedgerow.

Did you test it on new CCTLD maps?
Of course that solution works for Original CC5, GJS and BO maps...since hedgerows are coded on raised elevation

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 45

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 1:59:12 AM

Senior Drill

Posts: 199
Joined: 11/21/2007
From: Quantico
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

GJS has LOS blocked in my GJS elements file and it seems to deal with the LOS issue very neatly.

And it doesn't in my TLD file. Remember, Andrew, this about TLD, not BO or GJS. Enough with the misdirection. Stay focused on the TLD faults, please.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Senior Drill -- 9/19/2009 2:02:03 AM >

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 46

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 2:02:26 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

Tested on new tLD maps and recycled maps, yes.

I know tLD is coded differently... I am suggesting a solution, please read my posts... maybe you've lost control of that stick and are now self administering.

< Message edited by Andrew Williams -- 9/19/2009 2:05:34 AM >

(in reply to Senior Drill)

Post #: 47

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 2:06:55 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

I think the not block LOS flag was the original CC5 coding for hedgerows

< Message edited by Andrew Williams -- 9/19/2009 2:09:01 AM >

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 48

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 2:07:35 AM

Senior Drill

Posts: 199
Joined: 11/21/2007
From: Quantico
Status: offline

Andrew, you have shown the element coding is in error. It now begs the question.

Are you going to lobby the cabal to change this in the official patch (deux) or not? Additionally, are you or are you not supporting the evidence that terrain elevation is a factor in the coding of hedgerows?

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

(in reply to Senior Drill)

Post #: 49

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 2:11:12 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

At this point I can see a case for mixed elevation is acceptable within the coding of the 64 maps provided the Block LOS flag is raised.

LAst I heard LOS was going to be made easier through hedgerows for tLD, raising the possibility of seeing through multiple hedgerows, I don't know what the argument is supporting this.

maybe someone who was part of that decision making process could chime in here.

< Message edited by Andrew Williams -- 9/19/2009 2:13:09 AM >

(in reply to Senior Drill)

Post #: 50

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 2:14:23 AM

Senior Drill

Posts: 199
Joined: 11/21/2007
From: Quantico
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

I think the not block LOS flag was the original CC5 coding for hedgerows

No, it was not. Nor was it changed in the unofficial patch. Nor CCRAF, or CCMT.

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 51

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 2:16:26 AM

Senior Drill

Posts: 199
Joined: 11/21/2007
From: Quantico
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

At this point I can see a case for mixed elevation is acceptable within the coding of the 64 maps provided the Block LOS flag is raised.

LAst I heard LOS was going to be made easier through hedgerows for tLD, raising the possibility of seeing through multiple hedgerows, I don't know what the argument is supporting this.

maybe someone who was part of that decision making process could chime in here.

Tell them to wear a pair of iron underpants. I'm sharpening some more sticks.

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 52

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 2:21:05 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

just checked two CC5 installs on different PC's and it is set to false... but they wee installed long ago.

(in reply to Senior Drill)

Post #: 53

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 2:22:00 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

Also Karelia sis set to false... prbably because there are no hedgerows in use ... same for WaR so the coding is irrelevant.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 54

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 2:33:28 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

5.01 patch it is set to false.... so there you go.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 55

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 2:45:14 AM

squadleader_id

Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline

Confirmed, Shreckie...looks like the original patched CC5 elements file does 'feature' "not block LOS" for hedgerows.
I guess this "bug" was fixed when Normandy mods came out years ago...but apparently wasn't fixed in CCTLD.

Anyway...CCTLD with hedgerows elements set to "Block LOS"

New map St. Marie Du Mont:

Old CC5 Map Amfreville:

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 56

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 3:06:48 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

yes, that is the difference between adjacent to and in the hedgerow

Attachment (1)

(in reply to squadleader_id)

Post #: 57

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 3:21:11 AM

squadleader_id

Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline

Nope...unlike yours...on my screenshots...both teams are clearly adjacent to a hedgerow...not in the hedgerow...with unrealistic LOS results for the new map without raised elevation.
Don't forget that some of the new maps introduces "bocage" elements in the middle of hedgerows...you need to be adjacent to the bocage (ie: inside the hedgerow) to get LOS across them

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 58

RE: Map error - 9/19/2009 3:41:25 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

seems to be working fine with Blocl LOS enabled

I can manage to get a lOS if I fiddle around a lot and place them just right, but I figure one of the guys has scratched himself a hole, but generally LOS is blocked as it seems it should be.

your guy pictured above is blocked at 10m , mine is at 8m... so I win.