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RE: Incidental Mod Musing... - 10/3/2009 10:52:34 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
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Status: offline 		Okay.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 121
French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 1:25:24 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Okay, this last one was always a bit tricky, but I've given it a go. As I stated previously, the French are caught in the middle of re-equipping and re-organizing their Indochina air arm.

They've split the country into three geographical zones of operations, each with its own mixed air wing (Groupement Mixte). In addition, there's a reserve wing, a reconnaissance unit and a small Aeronavale wing, operating some land-based Loires as well as the ones flying from the cruisers.

The northern wing is naturally based around Hanoi, and comprises two fighter squadrons of Hawks (19 operational, 5 non-operational) and a bomber squadron with of F.221s (6 each operational and non-operational).

The central wing protects Hue, and has one fighter squadron of MS 406s (10/2) and one bomber squadron of Marylands (9/3).

Given that the likeliest route for a Jap incursion is in the south, this is where most of the French air strength is concentrated. The southern wing has three figher squadrons of Hawks (30/6) and a bomber squadrons of Marylands (10/2).

The reserve wing is also in the south, with one fighter squadron of MS 406 (4/8), one bomber squadron of F.221s (4/8) and one transport squadron of Potez 542s (6/6).

Rounding out the OOB is an observation squadron with Potez 25s (12/6), and a flying boat squadron of Loire 130s (6 shore-based, 8 ship-based).

Total air strength:

  • Hawk - 60
  • MS 406 - 24
  • Maryland - 24
  • F.221 - 24
  • Potez 542 - 12
  • Potez 25 - 18
  • Loire 130 - 14


In all 176 aircraft.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 10/5/2009 1:29:47 AM >

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Post #: 122
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 1:47:10 AM   
Alikchi2

 

Posts: 1785
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline 		I very much approve. This is going to be awfully interesting.

Have you put any thought into the altered Japanese dispositions? Simultaneous invasion from Thailand, China and the sea, I would imagine.. and if the Thais want a chunk of Indochina this may be something they're willing to fully commit to.

The real question is what the effect of putting off an invasion of Malaya for some time will be. Assuming the Japanese player decides to put it off, of course.

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Post #: 123
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 2:37:25 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		It will be interesting to see what the force disposition is on Hainan.

Are there to be some reshuffling of major Japanese naval assets??

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Post #: 124
RE: Incidental Mod Musing... - 10/5/2009 10:08:02 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Can't do an overland Jap invasion from the north, since the Chinese own all the real estate. The current plan is a three-pronged offensive, one through Cambodia towards Phnom Penh and Saigon, and the other two through Laos and from the sea to cut the country in half at Hue and then drive north. The Thais will definitely be involved.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 10/5/2009 10:09:48 AM >

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Post #: 125
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 10:09:10 AM   
Terminus


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Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

It will be interesting to see what the force disposition is on Hainan.

Are there to be some reshuffling of major Japanese naval assets??


Haven't decided yet. For the moment, I've just picked up all the Jap units that were in Indochina and dropped them in Thailand and on Hainan.

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Post #: 126
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 10:18:58 AM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		Is the Japanese side strengthend somehow - maybe by additional Thai Air and ground units later in the war as they aren't as reluctant as IRL this time?
Or is it just intended to make it a little more difficult for Japan and to add additional ships and planes to the game?

Will other parts of the French Navy join the fight later in the war? No Toulon, no Oran, no Mars-e-Kebir... This should strengthen them somehow, especially as the French Navy participates in fighting the Italians.


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(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 127
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 11:00:34 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		What about AVG will they move from Burma to Indochina?

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 128
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 12:34:40 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Possibly. It largely depends on playtesting, and whether or not Indochina turns into a one-week speedbump or a month-long slogging match for the Japs.

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Post #: 129
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 1:01:13 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Is the Japanese side strengthend somehow - maybe by additional Thai Air and ground units later in the war as they aren't as reluctant as IRL this time?
Or is it just intended to make it a little more difficult for Japan and to add additional ships and planes to the game?

Will other parts of the French Navy join the fight later in the war? No Toulon, no Oran, no Mars-e-Kebir... This should strengthen them somehow, especially as the French Navy participates in fighting the Italians.



I don't want to go overboard with the Japs. It'll be more a case of redeploying existing units, although the Thai army presence will almost certainly be expanded, along with a Thai air force.

And yes, there'll be other French ships arriving, including some who've been reconstructed in the United States. Jean Bart will be an aircraft carrier, for example. I've got art for it, as well as for French Hellcats and Dauntlesses, so I'd be a fool not to use it.

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Post #: 130
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 4:50:13 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		sounds good!

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Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 131
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 5:06:37 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Is the Japanese side strengthend somehow - maybe by additional Thai Air and ground units later in the war as they aren't as reluctant as IRL this time?
Or is it just intended to make it a little more difficult for Japan and to add additional ships and planes to the game?

Will other parts of the French Navy join the fight later in the war? No Toulon, no Oran, no Mars-e-Kebir... This should strengthen them somehow, especially as the French Navy participates in fighting the Italians.



I don't want to go overboard with the Japs. It'll be more a case of redeploying existing units, although the Thai army presence will almost certainly be expanded, along with a Thai air force.

And yes, there'll be other French ships arriving, including some who've been reconstructed in the United States. Jean Bart will be an aircraft carrier, for example. I've got art for it, as well as for French Hellcats and Dauntlesses, so I'd be a fool not to use it.


Just wondering if you are going to go for a rematch of the 1940 war in indochina, or will the Thai's still be going after the Shan States.

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Post #: 132
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 5:08:02 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		The Thais will do what the Japs tell them to do. We shall see what that is.

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Post #: 133
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 5:09:14 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		One French unit that will definitely be making an appearance as a reinforcement is the 13e DBLE. Always had a soft spot for that one.

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Post #: 134
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 8:24:16 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Side views: http://www.clipart.com/ set options to english and search "France Ship"

In attachment is the ch111-112 renamed AVALANCHE and COMMANDANT BOURDAIS

You have more sides there like La Perouse; Arras is same class as Tahure but there are better drwaings around.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 135
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 8:42:49 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Already got it, although the art is provisional. I didn't know she had two stacks; are you sure this is the correct class?




Attachment (1)

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 136
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 10:42:10 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Yep, i am certain about that. But the drawing i posted above is incorrect since hull bow doesn't have such elevation in photos.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 137
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 10:43:06 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Here is the proper Avalanche





Fuel i have is 24t coal

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Dili -- 10/5/2009 10:46:15 PM >

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 138
RE: French Air OOB - 10/5/2009 10:46:02 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Definitely the same. Okay, won't be hard to fix that ship art.

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 139
Thailand - 10/6/2009 12:10:22 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Historically, Thailand invaded French Indochina in late 1940, to exploit the perceived weakness of Vichy and conquer what the Thais thought of as their territory. The war was quite short and while it ended in stalemate militarily, a Japanese-brokered ceasefire agreement achieved the Thai political objectives.

In my timeline, there is no Vichy government and therefore the French hold on Indochina is not nearly as tenuous, keeping the Thais from going to war. Instead, the Thai government seeks closer ties with the Japanese, biding its time.

In December 1941, the Japanese have persuaded the Thais to assist them in their conquest of the SRA by contributing a large part of its armed forces for the attack on Indochina. Their reward will be control of the disputed territories in French Indochina.

Both Royal Thai Army, Air Force (re-equipped by the IJAAF to avoid "incidents") and Navy will be present in my mod.

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 140
RE: Thailand - 10/6/2009 1:46:19 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Historically, Thailand invaded French Indochina in late 1940, to exploit the perceived weakness of Vichy and conquer what the Thais thought of as their territory. The war was quite short and while it ended in stalemate militarily, a Japanese-brokered ceasefire agreement achieved the Thai political objectives.

In my timeline, there is no Vichy government and therefore the French hold on Indochina is not nearly as tenuous, keeping the Thais from going to war. Instead, the Thai government seeks closer ties with the Japanese, biding its time.

In December 1941, the Japanese have persuaded the Thais to assist them in their conquest of the SRA by contributing a large part of its armed forces for the attack on Indochina. Their reward will be control of the disputed territories in French Indochina.

Both Royal Thai Army, Air Force (re-equipped by the IJAAF to avoid "incidents") and Navy will be present in my mod.



With your timeline... one of the big deciding factors with British actions in northern Malaya was Thai neutrality. The British did not want to violate this neutrality so delayed in issuing orders for the forces in northern Malaya to advance to the 'Ledge' position. IIRC (don't have my sources readily at hand) the 'Ledge' was a serious escarpment roughly 30-50 miles within Thai territory. Had the British opted to advance 24-36 hours sooner, instead of waffling, perhaps the outcome of the campaign may have been altered in a significant fashion.

From your description above it sounds like the Thai's have firmly cast there lot with the Japanese. With that in mind will Allied dispositions in northern Malaya be altered to reflect a greater willingness for the British to advance to the 'Ledge' position? This representation could be by pre-positioning British units in Thailand just west of Patani and giving the units in Alor Star a higher fort level.

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(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 141
RE: Thailand - 10/6/2009 2:20:22 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I have considered this, and will continue to, but I've also not yet decided how many additional forces are available to the British. It's highly speculative how effective the forces historically in Malaya would have been, even if the British had executed their Matador plan and gone with the pre-emptive strike. Also, such a scheme could still be undermined by Jap landing along the eastern coast of Malaya.

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Post #: 142
RE: Thailand - 10/6/2009 3:07:59 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		The excelent now dead website LaRoyale have better data about submarine chasers and others. Via archive.org : http://web.archive.org/web/20010710061006/perso.wanadoo.fr/bertrand.daubigny/cha101-117.htm

32t coal (my data 24t above is from an old Jane's)

1-2 canon(s) de 75 mm
1-2 mitrailleuse(s)de 8 mm
8 Depth Charges of 75kg
a "1 torpille type Pinocchio" this is a probable mistake for a Ginnochio towed anti-submarine Torpedo.

Here is the top link for auxiliaries:
http://web.archive.org/web/20020208164709/perso.wanadoo.fr/bertrand.daubigny/FAX39.htm

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 143
French Question - 10/6/2009 3:26:26 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Did the French have a Naval Infantry force? I know that historically some ship crews were formed into battalions in the army after they lost their ships, but was there anything permanent?

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Post #: 144
RE: French Question - 10/6/2009 4:19:22 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Did the French have a Naval Infantry force? I know that historically some ship crews were formed into battalions in the army after they lost their ships, but was there anything permanent?


Yes, there were at least two naval infantry regiments (1er and 2e régiment de fusilier marins; RFM) in existence during WW2. 1er RFM was formed from 1er Bataillon de fusiliers marins (1er BFM) in 1943, don't know about 2e RFM. If I remember correctly, 1er BFM was formed in 1940 (as a Free French unit) in the UK because the original 1er BFM had remained under Vichy control (a brigade of fusiliers marins had fought in WWI).

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Post #: 145
RE: French Question - 10/6/2009 4:28:39 PM   
Dili

 

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Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		A Batalion de Infanterie de Marine was in Allied side since late 40 in MiddleEast, North African Theatre.

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Post #: 146
RE: French Question - 10/6/2009 5:07:21 PM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

A Batalion de Infanterie de Marine was in Allied side since late 40 in MiddleEast, North African Theatre.


1er BFM

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Post #: 147
RE: French Question - 10/6/2009 6:18:01 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		I have BIM but it came from an English text.


Edit: http://www.france-libre.net/1ere-dfl/unites/bimp.php?3aec685daa5c376aaa5a33ed1835c6fe=69d47aa8388be598a55ce544a345098e

It's BIM but it appears to be an ad-hoc unit.

< Message edited by Dili -- 10/6/2009 6:30:10 PM >

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Post #: 148
RE: French Question - 10/6/2009 6:33:51 PM   
Kereguelen


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Joined: 5/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

I have BIM but it came from an English text.


I've seen/read both designations (BIM and BFM) for the same battalion even in French texts about the campaign in North Africa (Bir Hakeim etc.).

Don't know which term is correct here, because the term infanterie de marine applies to French navy units that were employed overseas (then as part of the Troupes Coloniales) while the term fusiliers marins applied to navy units that were employed in France proper.

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 149
RE: French Question - 10/6/2009 6:45:17 PM   
Skyland


Posts: 280
Joined: 2/8/2007
From: France
Status: offline 		All infanterie de marine troops were named colonial infantery, in France and overseas until the 60's i think. Their insignia was an anchor.

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 150
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