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Japanese fighters - 11/7/2009 7:04:08 PM   
vonTirpitz


Posts: 511
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Wilmington, NC
Status: offline 		It's January 42 in my PBEM game and I need some insight from other players.

Has anyone figured out how to best use their fighters at the start of the war? I've had zeroes flying cap at 10k, 15k and 20k only to see unescorted allied bombers (swordfish etc) regularly fly through my CAP unscathed.

The Nates are useless (taking 10:1 losses at times) and the Oscars can barely hold their own against British Buffalos. Allied P-40s are devastating on unescorted bombers and escorted bombers tend to take high losses as well. Experience for most of my fighters are near 70, fatigue is low and morale is high but they perform poorly.

Any thoughts on tactics? What should the Japanese plan to build if what they already have can't beat the old allied planes flying at the start?

Thanks for any help.

T
Post #: 1
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/7/2009 7:11:13 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Instead of escort, try sweeping at the max height you can that's still effective.  That works much better than escort.

Sweeping "sweeps" the enemy fighters out of the hex.  Works well if they arrive before the bombers.  Oh yeah, I'd still put a few fighters on escort.

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Post #: 2
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/7/2009 7:15:18 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I'm not experienced player, but my first suggestion is to forget the 10k altitude. Keep your planes high. My planes usually fly somewhere between 15-20k.

What oscars do you have? Get rid of models Ia and Ib as soon as possible, and build only model Ic. It has two heavy machine guns instead of light guns as earlier models.

And use high altitude sweeps to wear out your enemy's planes.

(in reply to vonTirpitz)
Post #: 3
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/7/2009 7:25:33 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		    This wasn't my experience. Granted, I play against AI, but Ki-43 destroy Bufalloes and Ki-27/A5M fight on about equal terms with them. 64th and 59th sentais just shredded Singapore CAP last turn, despite flying with drop tanks. Zeros do slightly better than 1:1 against Warhawks and destroy everything else. Experience taught me to use sweeps at 15 thousands all the time (although even higher altitude can probably also work). My only serious complaint is that 2x7.7 Japanese fighters are very ineffectual against anything with two engines, even those bombers with which they demolished quite easily in real life (like SBs).

EDIT: Also, sending bombers at 21 thousands against locations with strong CAP is advisable. Fighters suffer maneuver penalties at high altitudes, bombers don't. Or just not sending them at all for a day. Swith to 6 thousands when you dogpile doomed airfields with overwhelming forces.

< Message edited by FatR -- 11/7/2009 8:05:36 PM >

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Post #: 4
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/7/2009 8:11:52 PM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Instead of escort, try sweeping at the max height you can that's still effective.  That works much better than escort.

Sweeping "sweeps" the enemy fighters out of the hex.  Works well if they arrive before the bombers.  Oh yeah, I'd still put a few fighters on escort.



Solli has it right imo. I have been trying all sorts of things against the AI. I think that it's not rocket science, sort of logical. When I can, I try to run sweeps for a turn, maybe 2 over a base I want to hit. When I can, I then send in escorted bombers. I still sweep as well. Make sure bombers have their ranges set to their fighters. Under ideal circumstances I generally kick the Allies ass early war. Every step down from ideal; bad weather, bad pilots, bad commanders, bad base size, bad morale, bad supply situation, fatigue, bad support, etc. then my results get worse. You get the picture. Seems to work pretty darn well I say.

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Post #: 5
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/7/2009 8:34:44 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		1. use fighter sweeps
2. use altitude that gives your fighter best edge over the enemy CAP (in maneuvreability)
3. use primarily Zeros for sweep, Oscar for escort, Nate for CAP


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Post #: 6
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/7/2009 8:36:25 PM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

1. use fighter sweeps
2. use altitude that gives your fighter best edge over the enemy CAP (in maneuvreability)
3. use primarily Zeros for sweep, Oscar for escort, Nate for CAP



Barb said it better and simpler

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Post #: 7
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/7/2009 9:07:04 PM   
DaveP

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 1/4/2002
Status: offline 		All this advice sounds good, but does it really work?

I set lots of sweeps over allied bases (clark, singapore, etc.) and find that allied planes just stay on the ground and avoid the sweeps after the first one or two. The sweeps do nothing unless the enemy planes come up to play. However, once my sweeps are done, the allied fighters come out in droves to attack my subsequent bombing runs.

Sweeps are just great wastes of time, in my experience. If the enemy does not send up fighters to engage the sweep, should not the sweep planes get some attacks against the grounded enemy?


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Post #: 8
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/7/2009 9:12:26 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		Depends on altitude you are sending your sweeps/bombers :D If the sweep arrives at 30k alt, well there will be few fighters to sweep aside as all the others will not climb to the altitude in time to join.
Then your bombers arrive at 6 or 10k alt and get all those enemy fighters that could climb it in time on their heels.
Maybe that is what are you (DaveP) experiencing.


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RE: Japanese fighters - 11/7/2009 9:18:04 PM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveP

All this advice sounds good, but does it really work?

I set lots of sweeps over allied bases (clark, singapore, etc.) and find that allied planes just stay on the ground and avoid the sweeps after the first one or two. The sweeps do nothing unless the enemy planes come up to play. However, once my sweeps are done, the allied fighters come out in droves to attack my subsequent bombing runs.

Sweeps are just great wastes of time, in my experience. If the enemy does not send up fighters to engage the sweep, should not the sweep planes get some attacks against the grounded enemy?




DaveP I am still experimenting myself, but replay some turns flying some Zero sweeps at both the 15k and 20k levels . My sweeps in good conditios seem to work pretty well in the PI , and once I get the right bases also over Sing.

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Post #: 10
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/8/2009 12:29:05 AM   
stldiver


Posts: 724
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: West Palm Beach, USA
Status: offline 		Only one answer in my PBEM and we are into April.

25k has not been stopped except by Hurricanes which are tough at any altitude.

As others said sweeping is good. But make sure to escort your bombers. Also quantity is good to many escorts is better then to few.

I would rather overdue one target then split between two.

Also I have found quality pilots in Oscars 25k plus (they are the only ones that can engage B-17's at high altitude) can also duel with all planes.
In quantity.

Overwhelm and tire them with numbers.

I no longer fly lower then 20k with zero's and that is only escorting from CV's where my bombers and Kates fly lower thus I don't want the difference to be to much.

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Post #: 11
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/8/2009 10:11:52 AM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		    Why sweep so high? Japanese fighters have greatest edge at maneurability at low altitudes, as they lose maneurability faster above 15 thousands, so, IMHO, it is better to fly sweeps at 15, at least against AI, who never puts CAP at higher altitudes. Unless there is a certain breakoff point on the maneurability scale, below which the plane's performance decreases disproportionally, it seems better to sweep at 15 thousands whenever possible.

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Post #: 12
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/8/2009 6:08:09 PM   
vonTirpitz


Posts: 511
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Wilmington, NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

    Why sweep so high? Japanese fighters have greatest edge at maneurability at low altitudes, as they lose maneurability faster above 15 thousands, so, IMHO, it is better to fly sweeps at 15, at least against AI, who never puts CAP at higher altitudes. Unless there is a certain breakoff point on the maneurability scale, below which the plane's performance decreases disproportionally, it seems better to sweep at 15 thousands whenever possible.


I will try sending my Zeroes higher but I agree with FatR. I had always tried to keep my fighters in their optimal altitude for maneuverability but have been disappointed in their performance.

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Post #: 13
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/8/2009 6:31:25 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Keep in mind that if your fighters fly too low, enemy might have altitude advantage. I think altitude is a major factor during combat. Thanks to radar allied fighters usually have enough time to climb high. So my zeros and oscars always sweep over 15k.

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Post #: 14
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/8/2009 7:05:32 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

1. use fighter sweeps
2. use altitude that gives your fighter best edge over the enemy CAP (in maneuvreability)
3. use primarily Zeros for sweep, Oscar for escort, Nate for CAP



Because Nik and I are in a 2x2 game and I am the IJA and he is the IJN, I do not normally allow myself to use Zeros in combination with IJA fighters, I use Oscars for front line work and Nates for rear area CAP. The best Oscar units I use on Sweep the others on CAP. But you have to assume your larger strikes will miss coordinate some times.

On attack, I put my main bomber force together with their escorts at a small number of large bases (level 5 or above) and with air headquarters. This improves the chance of more people flying. If possible I'll put some sweeping fighters closer to the targets.

Sweep first, then launch a bomber attack, then maybe rest the bombers but sweep with spare fighters. Sweep every turn, bomb about every other turn. If there are lots of enemy fighters at the base comming up, you may lose lots of bombers for a while, but if you have more fighters and more bombers eventually you will drive the enemy fighters back as they can't take the losses on the ground and in the air. In large battles over Malaya, my Sally, Oscar Nate force lost maybe 30% but did drive out the enemy fighters from Singapore.

On defence, use multiple groups at Multiple altitudes, some lower, some higher. You might get more of the lower altitude planes into the fight, but having a few on higher altitude might give you a better ability to take out enemy sweepers. Some bombers will get through, the days of the "Uber CAP" in WITP are gone in AE.



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Post #: 15
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/8/2009 9:06:08 PM   
stldiver


Posts: 724
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: West Palm Beach, USA
Status: offline 		As to why I settled at 25k, even though Zero performance does drop. The enemy planes also drop. I almost always have the altitude advantage and it just works.

It maybe better at 15k better, but I have found no reason to tinker with success.

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Post #: 16
RE: Japanese fighters - 11/8/2009 11:22:45 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Since I'm IJA, I'm mostly flying Oscars and Nates at this point. Also seems like the shorter "warning time" the Japanese have means, at least on defence, having some planes at lower altitudes, gets more of them into the air. Some at low, some at high.



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Post #: 17
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