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Leader Casualty ???

 
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Leader Casualty ??? - 5/13/2009 1:59:31 AM   
The Captain

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		This one seems to get a different answer depending on who you ask so......
Is leader casualty random???

It seems the consensus is that the senior leader bites the bullet every time.
Can some one please confirm this either way soon as we have a PBEM game ready to play and are just waiting on the answer before we set options.

thanks
The Captain

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RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/13/2009 12:58:25 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		It should be random.

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Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to The Captain)
Post #: 2
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/14/2009 12:39:00 AM   
The Captain

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		So if you have Napoleon and 5 other leaders does the program;

a-choose a leader casualty and then choose which one of the 6 leaders get it
or

b- EVERY leader at the battle has a chance to die
or

c- Only the commanding leader has a chance to die ?

thanks
The Captain

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Post #: 3
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/14/2009 10:52:26 AM   
Taijian

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 4/27/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: The 1.06 Manual

13.8.4 Leader Casualties (Optional)
After the completion of a field, trivial, or naval combat, each side with a leader or leaders present, is
checked to see if any became casualties in the combat by choosing a random number, 1 through 6.
Receiving a random number of "6" indicates a leader casualty. If a casualty is indicated, the program
randomly chooses a leader counter from among those present (if more than one is present) and chooses
another random number, 1 through 6, for the chosen leader. If the random number is a "6", the leader
casualty is "killed" and taken permanently from the game. On any other result, the leader casualty is
"wounded" and taken from the map for a number of complete months equal to the random number.


I read this to mean that a) is the correct answer.

(in reply to The Captain)
Post #: 4
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/14/2009 12:48:58 PM   
The Captain

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks a lot Taijian and Marshall that clears up a ****ly one
Game 5 vetoed leader casualty because the players believed it only applied to the senior leader.

I hope Game 7 now adopts it when it starts. So Taijan are you voting to include Leader casualty

regards
The Captain

(in reply to Taijian)
Post #: 5
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/14/2009 2:41:42 PM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		Just did a test.
6 Austrian corps+ John+Charles (B)
And 3 Prussian corps lead by Hoenloehe (B) Lend to Austria.
Allies at Freiburg.
France attacks with full force, Napoleon and his 6 other leaders.
First bug : Hoenloehe gets command ?............

Aprox 30 battles 2 times casulties happen... BTw if you wanna speed test, have 1 side guard commit first round, i didnt have it set :(
Think next time, i would just have Austria+French forces and use the Austrian 3 leaders, and gd-commitment.
Took bit over 1 hour to test, due to alot of battles going more than 1 day. But was fun esc attack vs esc counter attack, like 100+ factors lost battles.(dropped using pursuit for speed).

3.battle attemp
Leader casulty. as i asmued Hoenloehe "Allied leader" gets wounded.(
27. battle attemp
Leader castulty this time its Napoleon who gets wounded.


What are the odds ?
Napoleon is like 1/7, and Hoenloehe 1/3.
No casulties rolled for any other leader.

Following EIA the choise should be "A", but the game seems to run "C".


Regards
Bresh

< Message edited by bresh -- 5/14/2009 3:20:36 PM >

(in reply to The Captain)
Post #: 6
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/14/2009 6:01:06 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline 		Testing would be a lot easier and quicker if the API was exposed, providing the robustness of the code is good. Either way, Marshall should be running unit tests like this on his code before it even goes to the testers, I'd be curious to see if he is in fact doing that.

(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 7
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/14/2009 11:10:52 PM   
The Captain

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Ok so we are back to where we started .... sort of

To summarise.... the game is "meant" to have leader casualties in a total random fashion, however due to a bug in the program this doesn't happen.

Correct ?

The Captain

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 8
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/15/2009 12:02:30 AM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: The Captain

Ok so we are back to where we started .... sort of

To summarise.... the game is "meant" to have leader casualties in a total random fashion, however due to a bug in the program this doesn't happen.

Correct ?

The Captain


Well, its what asume.
Like i asumed, it didnt do random hits, but always the Army-leader.(Beside the buggy selection of who was to Lead 6Aus/3Pr taking Hoenloehe over Charles, both B-leaders and Austria even having the majority of corps.
But if im incorrect, im surprised my own test turned out as it did.
I do encourage others to test. I did test using 1.05.05.

Regards
Bresh

< Message edited by bresh -- 5/15/2009 12:04:44 AM >

(in reply to The Captain)
Post #: 9
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/15/2009 12:26:29 AM   
pzgndr

 

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From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

Aprox 30 battles 2 times casulties happen...


This sample size is insufficient to determine if there is a bug or not.

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Post #: 10
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/15/2009 12:51:57 AM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

Aprox 30 battles 2 times casulties happen...


This sample size is insufficient to determine if there is a bug or not.


I just continued till i had castulties in 2 battles, and documented this.
The odds of it happening twice with the same result beeing the Army-leader is pretty low, if it was random leader in each stack.
I spend aprox 1 hour testing, but as i wrote this could be speeded up,
feel free to test yourself.
My test, just indicates it seems not to work propper.


Regards
Bresh

< Message edited by bresh -- 5/15/2009 1:00:05 AM >

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 11
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/15/2009 2:56:56 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Do you have the game where "Hoe" gets command ??? I would like to see that one if you have it?
The leader cas should be random but I am playing 4 test games today and will dbl check...

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 12
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/15/2009 7:45:10 PM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Do you have the game where "Hoe" gets command ??? I would like to see that one if you have it?
The leader cas should be random but I am playing 4 test games today and will dbl check...


Odds of Leader-casulty is pretty low, so best way to test is create a special battle with as many leaders as possible on each side.

I have send you my land_combat file where Hoenloehe gets command, from my testing.


Regards
Bresh

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 13
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/15/2009 9:29:24 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline 		Marshall,

Can't you just code a test case for this and run it a few thousand times?

These are the exact type of things that should be able to be tested with a small coded test case. Playtesters should be worried about the more "unusual" situations.

< Message edited by NeverMan -- 5/15/2009 9:30:15 PM >

(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 14
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/15/2009 10:28:15 PM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Marshall,

Can't you just code a test case for this and run it a few thousand times?

These are the exact type of things that should be able to be tested with a small coded test case. Playtesters should be worried about the more "unusual" situations.


If i where developer, i just raise the chance of a "hit" in a test-enviroment and recompile, then do a couple battles with 5-10 leaders on both sides.
IF the commanding leaders are the only ones who get hit, the code needs a checkup about determining who get wounded/dies.


Regards
Bresh

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 15
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/16/2009 1:23:02 PM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		Did a couple more tests today.
This time again 7 French leaders, Allied 5(Mack(a),Brunswick(A),Charles(B),Hoenloehe(B),John(C) (Brunswick in command...) 3 Pr corps 7 Austrian.
Gd commit on. Guards commited 1.round.

Tested till 2 times castulties.
Again Napy bites it And Brunswick.

So now i had casulties in 4 battles always army leader...


Regards
Bresh


< Message edited by bresh -- 5/16/2009 1:43:49 PM >

(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 16
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/18/2009 12:36:29 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I can easily type a cheat to make a leader get wounded so I'll look at this (hopefully today).


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 17
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 5/18/2009 8:43:12 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I can easily type a cheat to make a leader get wounded so I'll look at this (hopefully today).


Can we get a list of cheats? Especially if they only work in AI games?

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At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

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Post #: 18
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 7/6/2009 11:18:24 AM   
The Captain

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		How are we progressing on this?
What is the priority?

I really think Leader Casualty is an essential issue. Any realistic game requires this 'option'. So really it is critical that it works and that players can have confidence it what really is an esential component of the game.

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Post #: 19
RE: Leader Casualty ??? - 7/6/2009 1:38:07 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		This will not make it in 1.06 BUT I will look at adding this to 1.07



_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to The Captain)
Post #: 20
Has 1,07 fixed the leader casuality bug? - 12/2/2009 10:09:14 AM   
The Captain

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Marshall,
We are starting a new PBEM game and need to know if to include leader casualties. This will depend if the bug is fixed so the senior leader isn't killed each time.
Please reply asap as the whole board are waiting on your answer to start.

Thanks a lot
Captain

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(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 21
RE: Has 1,07 fixed the leader casuality bug? - 12/2/2009 2:00:05 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I cannot see a Mantis case on this BUT I just looked into the code and can see that I am randomly selecting an available leader.
Let me see if some testers can chime in on this...
Testers?


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to The Captain)
Post #: 22
RE: Has 1,07 fixed the leader casuality bug? - 12/2/2009 8:26:40 PM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		Im no tester, but if i can find the old savegame in my sendbox i used to show my point that it always took the seniority leader(and not random). I might be able to test some battles, but wont bee till next week, im stuck in work and xmas stuff.

Regards
Bresh

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 23
RE: Has 1,07 fixed the leader casuality bug? - 12/2/2009 9:47:59 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		Marshall, we need a "cheat code" (if one exists) to allow testing of this scenario. It will just take too long to exhaustively test it at one time in every (averaged) 36 tries.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 24
RE: Has 1,07 fixed the leader casuality bug? - 12/2/2009 10:03:41 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I will try and run a scenario later this week...



_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 25
RE: Has 1,07 fixed the leader casuality bug? - 12/3/2009 1:01:18 AM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline 		I would strongly advise against giving any testers any "cheat codes" (if in fact I am understanding what you mean by "cheat codes" correctly).

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 26
RE: Has 1,07 fixed the leader casuality bug? - 12/3/2009 1:05:08 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Nobody is going to get any cheat codes! They don't work in the full versions anyway!
I think (To Jimmer's credit here) he is just looking for a quick way to test the casualty selection process.


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 27
RE: Has 1,07 fixed the leader casuality bug? - 12/3/2009 3:34:17 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		Right on about the purpose.

But, cheat codes SHOULD work on full versions and SHOULD be given to players (not just testers, although an argument could be made for that). However, they should be optional (i.e. an option turns them off for the whole game; the option cannot be changed after game start).

The reason is because ordinary testing will never come close to discovering all of the bugs. Only full production usage ever uncovers the hidden bugs. EiANW is an excellent example of what happens when you do not release cheat codes: Dozens (hundreds?) of bugs are not uncovered until real games are impacted.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 28
RE: Has 1,07 fixed the leader casuality bug? - 12/3/2009 4:16:59 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

Right on about the purpose.

But, cheat codes SHOULD work on full versions and SHOULD be given to players (not just testers, although an argument could be made for that). However, they should be optional (i.e. an option turns them off for the whole game; the option cannot be changed after game start).

The reason is because ordinary testing will never come close to discovering all of the bugs. Only full production usage ever uncovers the hidden bugs. EiANW is an excellent example of what happens when you do not release cheat codes: Dozens (hundreds?) of bugs are not uncovered until real games are impacted.


Not that I entirely disagree with your opinion; however, the vast majority of a lot of these bugs could have been discovered by simple unit tests. The leader casualty is a PERFECT example. Unit testing should be done on the development side BEFORE the product ever goes to testing. JMO.

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 29
RE: Has 1,07 fixed the leader casuality bug? - 12/3/2009 7:08:41 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, but it wasn't. So now our only option is to production-test things.

Actually, beta-testing could do this as well, but production use of any software always uncovers the most issues. Since having cheat codes available harms nobody (if made optional), the only cost is what it would take to externalize them. (This is potentially difficult, though, so the cost to implement could be quite high, even if the risk is low.)

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 30
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