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RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 12:23:26 AM   
Whisper

 

Posts: 121
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: LA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

please, donßt scare him, he is sec level 5 and works for the state!


Let me know when it's safe to come out of hiding!

This is like two neuter bulls in the ring in TJ. Fun but not very funny. wow both these peoply are are seriously wierd. Duck and cover.

not Frank or witpqs, I mean those nuts waving their clearances in each others faces.

< Message edited by Whisper -- 1/4/2010 5:44:56 AM >

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 31
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 12:45:51 AM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Useless posts!?!  I thought they were my specialty.  

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Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to Whisper)
Post #: 32
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 3:45:30 AM   
jb123


Posts: 276
Joined: 8/6/2009
Status: offline 		one of my first threads in this forum and it gets hijacked like this.... so, about those APs. I can't imagine the 41st infantry div getting transported without escort. They took the QE in real life, what assets supported them?

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 33
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 4:58:30 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		To be honest, I don't think anything did. Most likely they had a DD escort for the first couple of hundred miles and the last couple. But any ASW escort would have just slowed them down and made them vulnerable. Remember they crossed the Atlantic with no escorts also, and it would have been much more dangerous.

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Post #: 34
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 5:51:34 AM   
Whisper

 

Posts: 121
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: LA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

To be honest, I don't think anything did. Most likely they had a DD escort for the first couple of hundred miles and the last couple. But any ASW escort would have just slowed them down and made them vulnerable. Remember they crossed the Atlantic with no escorts also, and it would have been much more dangerous.

I don't think thay had escorts either irl. But I have seen them get torpedoed by submarines in the Aars, so how do they get protected in the game?

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 35
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 6:34:27 AM   
Iridium


Posts: 932
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Whisper

I don't think thay had escorts either irl. But I have seen them get torpedoed by submarines in the Aars, so how do they get protected in the game?


They don't apparently...

At best I could use CVE's posted along the intended path of the QE but this would be a giant waste of resources and only doable late war. The best method to keep them out of harm's way is to use them far from the front lines.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Whisper)
Post #: 36
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 7:32:43 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		To my knowledge, the DDs only slowed the Queens down. There is the famous case of the Queen Mary slicing through her only escort HMS Curacao (an older CL) and continuing on to Britain unescorted (I am sure that they sent craft out to meet her as she approached Britain). Herwin's post agrees with what I have read - that they counted on speed to foil the subs.

I like to use older CLs (Omahas, British, Aussie, Kiwi or Dutch) as escorts. They can't do anything about the subs, but they can fend off surface raiders - and they can almost keep up with the big liners.


_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Iridium)
Post #: 37
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 9:00:32 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

maybe he will be better at level 6!


There's something screwy about this discussion. I don't remember the US Department of State running its own clearance system. I suspect a troll.


and anyone who reveals their clearance on a public forum probably doesn't deserve it.....




I didn't know we need security clearance to play AE! Now, should I mail my signed copy of our version of "Official Secrets Act" to Matrix Games, since I have apparently been exposed to confidential, secret and top secret material on this forum!

Whole idea of adding some credibility to one's posts by stating "I have security clearance" on WW II Pacific War forum is absolutely ridiculous.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 38
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 9:45:00 AM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

maybe he will be better at level 6!


There's something screwy about this discussion. I don't remember the US Department of State running its own clearance system. I suspect a troll.


and anyone who reveals their clearance on a public forum probably doesn't deserve it.....




I didn't know we need security clearance to play AE! Now, should I mail my signed copy of our version of "Official Secrets Act" to Matrix Games, since I have apparently been exposed to confidential, secret and top secret material on this forum!

Whole idea of adding some credibility to one's posts by stating "I have security clearance" on WW II Pacific War forum is absolutely ridiculous.


I agree. The only reason I mentioned AN/BSY-2 was to support my argument that fast-moving TFs and ships were immune to WWII submarine attack without getting into the details. I guess I need to fill in the blanks, although bsq made the key point. WWII subs were almost stationary when submerged and not that fast on the surface (around 20 knots). Against a convoy or a TF when it was trundling along at 15 knots, that was enough, but against a CVTF or fast packet at 25-30 knots, the sub had to take a shot as the target passed at speed. Getting a good track on a ship took a while, so the chance of a successful engagement of a fast-moving ship was very low. This had operational significance. A carrier in a hurry out of enemy air range was very hard to take down. Both sides used high speed when they needed to get damaged carriers (Yorktown, Shokaku) out of an engagement or back to a dock yard, and I've found the game gets this detail wrong.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 39
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 12:20:15 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		Plus, at the speed the QM and QE were travelling, if the sub wasn't already in torpedo range as the ship passed by, there was zero chance the sub could move fast enough to get into firing range before the ship was out of sight.  There were many encounters in the Pacific where USN subs would see fast moving IJN warships but could not get into position to fire torpedoes at them.  Unless the sub was very lucky and the liner was headed almost right at them, there was very little chance they'd get torpedoed.

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 40
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 12:37:13 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline 		I think the game goes by maneuverability, not speed, when handling torpedo attacks. At least, maneuverability is the main factor.

Hence why subs attacking DDs almost always result in a "Torpedoes miss!" while subs attacking Queen Mary results in four hits and a lot of Japanese victory points.

You even see it with subs vs warships. A DD is hard to hit - a CA is harder than an AK but far far easier to hit than a DD.

_____________________________


(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 41
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 2:10:54 PM   
whippleofd

 

Posts: 617
Joined: 12/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

I agree. The only reason I mentioned AN/BSY-2 was to support my argument that fast-moving TFs and ships were immune to WWII submarine attack without getting into the details. I guess I need to fill in the blanks, although bsq made the key point. WWII subs were almost stationary when submerged and not that fast on the surface (around 20 knots). Against a convoy or a TF when it was trundling along at 15 knots, that was enough, but against a CVTF or fast packet at 25-30 knots, the sub had to take a shot as the target passed at speed. Getting a good track on a ship took a while, so the chance of a successful engagement of a fast-moving ship was very low. This had operational significance. A carrier in a hurry out of enemy air range was very hard to take down. Both sides used high speed when they needed to get damaged carriers (Yorktown, Shokaku) out of an engagement or back to a dock yard, and I've found the game gets this detail wrong.


herwin, in my book you're one of the folks on here that doesn't need supporting evidence for your arguments to be rational and well thought out.

Maybe that's because I know just enough naval "science" to understand what you are talking about. More likely it's because if I don't understand what you are talking about, I go look it up and educate myself.

Keep on keepin on. Do your thing, ignore the trolls and never EVER feel the need to justify to those who are insulting.

Whipple

_____________________________

MMCS(SW/AW) 1981-2001
1981 RTC, SD
81-82 NPS, Orlando
82-85 NPTU, Idaho Falls
85-90 USS Truxtun (CGN-35)
90-93 USS George Washington (CVN-73)
93-96 NFAS Orlando
96-01 Navsea-08/Naval Reactors

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 42
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 3:02:53 PM   
NightFlyer


Posts: 68
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RDonlon


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin
HISTORY

The Queens did not use escorts. They cruised at 29-30 knots, which was sufficiently fast that a sub had a near-nil chance of developing a target solution in the time between first detection and engagement. (When I was doing the system modelling for A/N BSY-2, I had to model this process. There are a number of books in the open literature that address the issues of interest.) Note that the American CVTFs moved at about that speed when strategically deploying, but with cruisers (but not destroyers, however) in attendance to protect against SAGs. They were also pretty much invulnerable to submarine attack.

I don't know what the game does. Most TFs and convoys moved at speeds that subs could handle. This is the sort of issue that you need a background in OR and some submarine experience to get right.

This is one of the most pretentious posts I have seen in many years. I assume you are not a developer because if you were you would have put that in your curious ciriculum vitae. Since you are not, I wonder what in the world you are talking about. Just who do you think you are? And don't play stupid games please. I work for State at sec level 5.


Oh look Mummy, there's a troll under the bridge. World of Warcraft is that way ----->

_____________________________

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(in reply to RDonlon)
Post #: 43
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 3:30:29 PM   
bsq


Posts: 517
Joined: 1/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jb123

one of my first threads in this forum and it gets hijacked like this.... so, about those APs. I can't imagine the 41st infantry div getting transported without escort. They took the QE in real life, what assets supported them?


Speed was their asset against subs and in my experience of using them in the game, a well plotted course stops them from being detected (whereas it would seem if you add escorts it slows them down and makes them more likely to be detected). I guess the footprint of one ship in the vast tracts of the Pacific is harder to detect than the footprint of a large convoy or naval TF.

(in reply to jb123)
Post #: 44
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 4:14:17 PM   
Knavey

 

Posts: 3052
Joined: 9/12/2002
From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Whisper

Neither one of these people are worth a purple fart in a pink bathtub.

Just go on.


Now THAT is funny!

_____________________________

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CVN-71
USN 87-93
"Going slow in the fast direction"

(in reply to Whisper)
Post #: 45
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 4:29:29 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

I think the game goes by maneuverability, not speed, when handling torpedo attacks. At least, maneuverability is the main factor.

Hence why subs attacking DDs almost always result in a "Torpedoes miss!" while subs attacking Queen Mary results in four hits and a lot of Japanese victory points.

You even see it with subs vs warships. A DD is hard to hit - a CA is harder than an AK but far far easier to hit than a DD.


I've had QE sunk in AE. Maybe the high speed aspect you guys describe is something that could be adjusted when the AE Team has time to think it over.

(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 46
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 5:01:14 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

I think the game goes by maneuverability, not speed, when handling torpedo attacks. At least, maneuverability is the main factor.

Hence why subs attacking DDs almost always result in a "Torpedoes miss!" while subs attacking Queen Mary results in four hits and a lot of Japanese victory points.

You even see it with subs vs warships. A DD is hard to hit - a CA is harder than an AK but far far easier to hit than a DD.


I've had QE sunk in AE. Maybe the high speed aspect you guys describe is something that could be adjusted when the AE Team has time to think it over.


Target TF speed is a component of the calculation and high speed reduces chances of successful attack. But it does not eliminate attacks. There's always a chance...

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 47
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 5:05:04 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Just ask Lusitania.



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(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 48
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 5:07:55 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		My biggest problem is not with subs, but that the QEs don't carry all of the cargo needed to transport a Regiment.

_____________________________


(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 49
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 5:29:57 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

My biggest problem is not with subs, but that the QEs don't carry all of the cargo needed to transport a Regiment.


I think that's because the fast liners didn't carry all the supporting equipment for the units - that stuff was carried over in slower convoys either prior to or subsequent to the transport of the soldiers. Thus a Queen could carry a division but in WITP she can't really handle a regiment.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 50
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 5:31:00 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad
My biggest problem is not with subs, but that the QEs don't carry all of the cargo needed to transport a Regiment.

Large passenger liners were utilized to transport large numbers of troops. They generally did not, and could not, transport entire large units complete with their organic equipment – guns, tracks, trucks, dozers, food, ammo, gas, etc.. Passenger terminals, even in very large ports, generally did not have the heavy lift facilities to support cargo of this type, in any case. The unit either hooked up with equipment already in-zone, or its organic heavy equipment was lifted separately.

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 51
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 5:55:31 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		I didn't say it should, I only stated that they didn't and that does cause me some problems. But I have taken to loading up a Regiment using a Fast AP and some AKS and then splitting up the TF into two parts and sending them out separately.

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Post #: 52
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 6:22:25 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

I think the game goes by maneuverability, not speed, when handling torpedo attacks. At least, maneuverability is the main factor.

Hence why subs attacking DDs almost always result in a "Torpedoes miss!" while subs attacking Queen Mary results in four hits and a lot of Japanese victory points.

You even see it with subs vs warships. A DD is hard to hit - a CA is harder than an AK but far far easier to hit than a DD.


I've had QE sunk in AE. Maybe the high speed aspect you guys describe is something that could be adjusted when the AE Team has time to think it over.


Target TF speed is a component of the calculation and high speed reduces chances of successful attack. But it does not eliminate attacks. There's always a chance...


There's always a chance you'ld run over a sub. Just small.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 53
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 6:25:39 PM   
bsq


Posts: 517
Joined: 1/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Just ask Lusitania.



Different in many ways:

Confined waters, close to the coast.
Almost runs into the submarine presenting a perfect firing solution to an already experienced crew of U20.
Had slowed to 18 knots due to fog - the same speed as the surfaced U-boat.
Single fish (the last one she had) fired at point blank.

It doesn't get any better for a submariner.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 54
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 6:54:33 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad
I didn't say it should, I only stated that they didn't and that does cause me some problems. But I have taken to loading up a Regiment using a Fast AP and some AKS and then splitting up the TF into two parts and sending them out separately.

That is a good move and one that, frankly, the game philosophy encourages. I am sure there are historical examples that indicate the contrary, in specific instances, but in the general sense, these ships function very well as they were intended to function. If they are used for other purposes - then all bets are off, woof!

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 55
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 8:20:25 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		Another point about the liners is they avoided the standard convoy routes, and becuase of their speed the trip was not that much longer. I lost the Queen cause I tried to run her in a straight line to the port I wanted her in and of course there was a boat waiting for her. The next game I used an out of the way route and had no problems. When she gets close to port I send out the ASW ships to clear a path for her.

_____________________________


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Post #: 56
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 8:42:51 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

I think the game goes by maneuverability, not speed, when handling torpedo attacks. At least, maneuverability is the main factor.

Hence why subs attacking DDs almost always result in a "Torpedoes miss!" while subs attacking Queen Mary results in four hits and a lot of Japanese victory points.

You even see it with subs vs warships. A DD is hard to hit - a CA is harder than an AK but far far easier to hit than a DD.


I've had QE sunk in AE. Maybe the high speed aspect you guys describe is something that could be adjusted when the AE Team has time to think it over.


Target TF speed is a component of the calculation and high speed reduces chances of successful attack. But it does not eliminate attacks. There's always a chance...


Excellent! Good to know. Thanks.

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 57
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 8:48:58 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

There's something screwy about this discussion. I don't remember the US Department of State running its own clearance system. I suspect a troll.

Aw, come on Herwin. Just admit you're a pretentious kind of guy!

But, I like your posts, so I must like pretentiousness.

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 58
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 10:12:08 PM   
whippleofd

 

Posts: 617
Joined: 12/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

But, I like your posts, so I must like pretentiousness.



How pretentious of you to say that! I think I'll just disreguard it.

Whipple

_____________________________

MMCS(SW/AW) 1981-2001
1981 RTC, SD
81-82 NPS, Orlando
82-85 NPTU, Idaho Falls
85-90 USS Truxtun (CGN-35)
90-93 USS George Washington (CVN-73)
93-96 NFAS Orlando
96-01 Navsea-08/Naval Reactors

(in reply to morganbj)
Post #: 59
RE: escorting APs with high cruise speed - 1/4/2010 10:40:46 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

There's something screwy about this discussion. I don't remember the US Department of State running its own clearance system. I suspect a troll.

Aw, come on Herwin. Just admit you're a pretentious kind of guy!

But, I like your posts, so I must like pretentiousness.



Yep!

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to morganbj)
Post #: 60
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