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RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/3/2010 3:12:14 AM

ckammp

Posts: 756
Joined: 5/30/2009
From: Rear Area training facility
Status: offline

I hate Steam, and won't use it. If that means i don't get to play games I really want (Empire:Total War), then so be it.
And while I wish other gamers wouldn't use Steam, I respect their right to do so; I reserve my anger for companies that make use of Steam - CA and SEGA suck!

(in reply to V22 Osprey)

Post #: 31

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/3/2010 9:01:26 AM

Hartford688

Posts: 261
Joined: 3/23/2004
From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wilecki

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

quote:

ORIGINAL: wilecki
I even almost went for buying HoI3 when it was 75% off, but I've regained sanity just in time not to do it. I've read few examples of how difficult it is to mod Steam versions of certain games, and I'd rather buy it full price from GG, when they finally make it playable of course. I use Steam only for Valve games, Indie games and some old games and it works for me so far.

I think its just a false rumour that steam games cant be modded. I have had no problems modding them so far.

I sure hope it's a false rumour.. As I've written above I've only read about it, not tested it myself. I will try to do so in near future, maybe could start with trying out some Half-life based games I own, but then again each game is a different story.

By the way, have you ever tried modding any Paradox game with steam? I am very curious about that.

Also, one of the concerns I've read about was that Steam is automatically updating games, so you always download the most up-to-date version. Although it's a generally good thing, it sometimes can make modding or using 3rd party patches impossible, as they often tend to lose compatibility with newer versions of base game. Do you have any experience with situation like this?

One issue re modding is, as you say, the version Steam sometimes has. Patches are sometimes long delayed for Steam versions of games, so that the latest versions of mods cannot run on the Steam version, until the Steam patches catch up.

I know this was an issue for a friend with Silent Hunter III - but shortly thereafter Steam issued the last patch and all was OK.

It is one reason I did not buy SH IV in the sale, as it appeared to be one patch behind.

Steam version of Iron Warriors was also an odd one with some features left out - which meant you could not fully tweak the configuration in game. Took me a while to figure out how to fix that. Still, the game only cost �2.49 so I was not too cross.

So long as they are up to date on their patches, seems fine.

(in reply to wilecki)

Post #: 32

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/3/2010 12:34:36 PM

GoodGuy

Posts: 1506
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Cologne, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

Steam is not that bad.Yes, you need to be online to activate the game, though I don't see the problem with this especially if you get the game from the steam store you are going to be online anyway.

When Half-Life 2 was released, a close friend (who's got a M.Sc. IT degree) of my buddy analyzed the packets the Steam software would send to Steam's master server and was pretty surprised (if not shocked): The Steam software had gathered a full list of the mp3 files stored on his computer, and relayed this info to Steam, obviously.

While Steam/Valve/Vivendi probably may not use or process the collected data, it's still pretty impertinent to collect (and relay) personal user data - without the user's consent, and without letting the user know what's going on in the background. The copy protection scheme "StarForce" has similar capabilities, means Starforce can be ordered with additional modules which can be used to spy on users.

While I rather doubt that let's say infos about illegal music files will make it to legal authorities via Steam, the collected data (amount, length and type of legal music files, for example) can still be sold (and will be sold, most likely). Additionally, infos like types of hardware, installed services, music genres (found in the mp3 collection), names and titles of games and applications used on a particular computer, etc., will be valuable for advertizers, hard- and software companies, and maybe even the music industry.
While Steam is Valve's "baby", I could imagine that Vivendi (with their music and Multimedia/games branches) would find these informations quite useful and pay for the info.

I'm not sure whether that guy posted his findings anywhere, I can't remember any big fuss around Steam regarding spying on users, at least, and I don't know whether they're still doing it or not. Whatsoever, I don't like that approach, so I avoid Steam.

Another downside is that you can't activate your game if the Steam server is down (eg. in December 2006,) and - during a server outage - you can't play those games that still need to contact the authentification server for single player action.

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 1/3/2010 1:13:34 PM >

_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
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December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne
---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
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(in reply to V22 Osprey)

Post #: 33

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/3/2010 12:51:07 PM

leastonh1

Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp

I hate Steam, and won't use it. If that means i don't get to play games I really want (Empire:Total War), then so be it.
And while I wish other gamers wouldn't use Steam, I respect their right to do so; I reserve my anger for companies that make use of Steam - CA and SEGA suck!

+1

I've moaned about steam and similar online activation frustrations in the past and am completely free of such nonsense, thankfully.

There's no good reason other than to benefit Valve/Battlefront/Bioware/etc., for forcing customers to activate online. It doesn't stop piracy, so their argument on that score is wasted breath. For example, I don't connect my mp3 player to Creative or Sony every time I want to listen to some music. I don't have to ask permission from Philips every time I want to watch a DVD on my player. So, I don't see why I should have to prove I'm not a thief every time I want to run a game on my PC.

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
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(in reply to ckammp)

Post #: 34

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/3/2010 6:11:20 PM

Zakhal

Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyv�skyl�, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

When Half-Life 2 was released, a close friend (who's got a M.Sc. IT degree) of my buddy analyzed the packets the Steam software would send to Steam's master server and was pretty surprised (if not shocked): The Steam software had gathered a full list of the mp3 files stored on his computer, and relayed this info to Steam, obviously.

I'm not sure whether that guy posted his findings anywhere, I can't remember any big fuss around Steam regarding spying on users, at least, and I don't know whether they're still doing it or not. Whatsoever, I don't like that approach, so I avoid Steam.

There were lots of bad rumours about steam during its release but I dont know if those are true and even if they are they still or has steam changed/fixed things? I avoided steam for many years (steaming pile of **** they called it) before I started to use it due to all the bad stuff I have heard. But so far I have never had any problems steam and I have been using it for many years.

Currently I would say steam is my favorite game provider. Its simply the easiest way to buy, install, play and update games. Of course the cheapness is important too. My main reason against steam was the high prices but now that I can buy i.e GTA4 for 7,5e, Stalker 2�, Bioshock 4,99� or killing floor 4,49� that is not a problem anymore. :)

quote:

Another downside is that you can't activate your game if the Steam server is down (eg. in December 2006,) and - during a server outage - you can't play those games that still need to contact the authentification server for single player action.

You can play steam games offline so I dont see how thats a problem? As for activation and installion I just take it granted that I need internet connection to do that for digital games.

Also if som games need constant online autenthication that problem is related to the game itself not steam. So far there has been one steam game out of many that I didnt buy because of extra DRM (Riddick). Granted I had problems with the physical version of the game too so I wasnt too anxious to test it.

As for server outages I didnt even remember it before you mentioned it. I faintly remember atleast one case where the servers were out when I was trying to log into steam but thats about it and it didnt take long for them to come back.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 1/3/2010 6:18:31 PM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/3/2010 7:52:01 PM

leastonh1

Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline

The other arguments I have against online activation/updates etc. is reliance on the supplier a) still being there next year and b) still supporting the game even a few years down the line when they don't want to provide resources, but I still want to play it. E.g. I, and many others, still play the very active and healthy Panzer General II. If Valve go down, what percentage of your games will stop working? That really puts me off. Eggs and baskets.

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to Zakhal)

Post #: 36

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/3/2010 8:31:10 PM

Zakhal

Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyv�skyl�, Finland
Status: offline

Valve owns majority of digital distribution so I dont thinks its going down anytime soon. But if it does go down Im sure somone would buy it and continue the service. Also incase of final meltdown I believe they would release a patch that would enable people to install their games from backups without online activation.

But if they do go down and are so mean that they wont release the patch I wont worry too much because I payed only few euros for the games. Allthough even in that case there will propably be som unofficial "patch" made by the steam community itself to save their games.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 1/3/2010 8:37:13 PM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/3/2010 10:36:49 PM

leastonh1

Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal
Valve owns majority of digital distribution so I dont thinks its going down anytime soon. But if it does go down Im sure somone would buy it and continue the service. Also incase of final meltdown I believe they would release a patch that would enable people to install their games from backups without online activation.

In the current climate, I wouldn't say any company is even remotely safe. There have been quite a few surprise retail failures here over the past few months and some of those very big names looked sure to find buyers, right up to the last minute when they failed. I know that's very pessimistic, but it's sadly the reality too. As Valve control and maintain the distribution and patching of the software, it bothers me that we are effectively at their mercy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal
But if they do go down and are so mean that they wont release the patch I wont worry too much because I payed only few euros for the games. Allthough even in that case there will propably be som unofficial "patch" made by the steam community itself to save their games.

That continuation is almost a certainty. As in the case of PGII I mentioned, the only reason it still works so well now is due to the community support.

I'd still like to know what the T&C's say about Valve's support for software though. It would be interesting to see what contingency they have in place for when they decided to drop support for a title or in the event of their losing control of their business for whatever reason. The point being, I'm happy for online updates and distribution, it's a great model. What I object to is not having a standalone product and self contained patches that I can keep control of myself. If I pay for it, I expect to retain ownership of the software and license for my own use on my own terms. Valve force people to relinquish that control and I won't buy from them for that reason and others.

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to Zakhal)

Post #: 38

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/3/2010 11:42:05 PM

Fallschirmjager

Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline

I purchased 9 games during the sale and the total was under $100
Crysis and Crysis Warhead for under $18 was too good to pass up.

I have no problem at all with Steam and I have always found it to be a fantastic way of purchasing games. There is almost no downtime with the service and I download games at 700 Kbps. In this day of internet service being 'always on' I never have problems with having to be connected to play games. There are also several games that do not require the service to be connected or even running in order to play.

I have never had problems modding or patching games either. I think many of the problems people report with modding and patching games is that Steam has an odd file path where it stores files and you have to look deep inside your C drive and then dig pretty deep into your Steam folder in order to find the game files.

I sincerly hope that Matrix would look into using Steam as a retail channel. I would not want it to take over as the primary or only way of game distribution. But as an alternate secondary source of game distribution it would only serve to increase Matrix game sales.

(in reply to leastonh1)

Post #: 39

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/3/2010 11:54:00 PM

Phatguy

Posts: 1348
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I purchased 9 games during the sale and the total was under $100
Crysis and Crysis Warhead for under $18 was too good to pass up.

I have no problem at all with Steam and I have always found it to be a fantastic way of purchasing games. There is almost no downtime with the service and I download games at 700 Kbps. In this day of internet service being 'always on' I never have problems with having to be connected to play games. There are also several games that do not require the service to be connected or even running in order to play.

I have never had problems modding or patching games either. I think many of the problems people report with modding and patching games is that Steam has an odd file path where it stores files and you have to look deep inside your C drive and then dig pretty deep into your Steam folder in order to find the game files.

I sincerly hope that Matrix would look into using Steam as a retail channel. I would not want it to take over as the primary or only way of game distribution. But as an alternate secondary source of game distribution it would only serve to increase Matrix game sales.

Oh God, I hope they never go the steam way...I truly believe that would kill Matrix games.No one would even attempt to buy from this site at full price. Everyone would wait for the inevitable sale on steam. And I dont think there would be a major upsurge in sales there. We are a niche market. Look what games are "happening" there..RTS and FPS rule for the most part.

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)

Post #: 40

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 12:01:11 AM

V22 Osprey

Posts: 1593
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline

I personally don't see what the whole big deal is about steam.I've never had problems with it.It doesn't restrict installs, you certainly don't have be online to play, it sits on your desktop and bothers no one, and I can connect with friends.It's also great for indie companies because it gives them more notice.For example, when AI War Fleet Command first came it out, it was on "Update News" that automaticly pops up after you exit a steam game.Imagine the millions of people that would have seen the game....and that game is just a one man show.Imagine what steam could do for Matrix.

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Post #: 41

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 1:03:12 AM

ckammp

Posts: 756
Joined: 5/30/2009
From: Rear Area training facility
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

I personally don't see what the whole big deal is about steam.I've never had problems with it.It doesn't restrict installs, you certainly don't have be online to play, it sits on your desktop and bothers no one, and I can connect with friends.It's also great for indie companies because it gives them more notice.For example, when AI War Fleet Command first came it out, it was on "Update News" that automaticly pops up after you exit a steam game.Imagine the millions of people that would have seen the game....and that game is just a one man show.Imagine what steam could do for Matrix.

Steam could do NOTHING for Matrix.

Matrix is great as is - easy to order, easy to download, physical copies available, and GREAT customer service. Matrix is the model of how other companies should be doing business.

With a game from Matrix, I decide when and whether I wish to upgrade; sometimes, I prefer the 'old' version of a game. With Steam, upgrades are mandatory and involuntary - sometimes, you actually can't play the game you purchased because Steam is upgrading. Just one of the many reasons why I won't use Steam.

And Matrix Games does a great job of promoting designers. Wargames are not mass-market games; do you think if millions of people saw an ad for a game like WitP:AE, they would all buy it? (Sorry Matrix, but you know it's true!

)

I just wish those 'millions of people' would stop using Steam.

(in reply to V22 Osprey)

Post #: 42

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 1:19:24 AM

dogancan

Posts: 189
Joined: 9/25/2007
From: Ankara - Turkey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp

With a game from Matrix, I decide when and whether I wish to upgrade; sometimes, I prefer the 'old' version of a game. With Steam, upgrades are mandatory and involuntary - sometimes, you actually can't play the game you purchased because Steam is upgrading. Just one of the many reasons why I won't use Steam.

as far as i know, automatic upgrades are optional and you can deactivate them by simply right-clicking on a game from your game list.

I can understand those who wants physical copies or installer files to make a collection of their purchased games. But some (most?) reasons to stay away from steam are false rumours...

(in reply to ckammp)

Post #: 43

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 2:13:00 AM

ckammp

Posts: 756
Joined: 5/30/2009
From: Rear Area training facility
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dogancan

quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp

With a game from Matrix, I decide when and whether I wish to upgrade; sometimes, I prefer the 'old' version of a game. With Steam, upgrades are mandatory and involuntary - sometimes, you actually can't play the game you purchased because Steam is upgrading. Just one of the many reasons why I won't use Steam.

as far as i know, automatic upgrades are optional and you can deactivate them by simply right-clicking on a game from your game list.

I can understand those who wants physical copies or installer files to make a collection of their purchased games. But some (most?) reasons to stay away from steam are false rumours...

I don't want a physical copy for a collection, I want a physical copy as a back-up that I can install when I want to or need to. Having a physical copy (along with an actual manual, not pdf) also gives me the feeling of owning the game. And yes, I would be willing to pay more to get a physical copy.

If I purchase a game, decide I don't really want it, I can always sell the physical copy. What do you do with a game that is just a registered download from Steam?

No, thank you. I'll stick to using sources like Matrix Games, and ignore Steam. I just wish more people felt the same way.

(in reply to dogancan)

Post #: 44

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 3:27:42 AM

GoodGuy

Posts: 1506
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Cologne, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

The Steam software had gathered a full list of the mp3 files stored on his computer, and relayed this info to Steam, obviously.

I'm not sure whether that guy posted his findings anywhere, I can't remember any big fuss around Steam regarding spying on users, at least, and I don't know whether they're still doing it or not. Whatsoever, I don't like that approach, so I avoid Steam.

There were lots of bad rumours about steam during its release ...

Thing is, with the detail I posted, it's not just a rumour. Steam used to spy on users. I don't even care if they still do it or not. You might remember when Sony came up with an audio CD that incorporated a copy protection AND spyware. The copy protection already pissed off people more than enough (CD would not work on older CD players), but - to top that - they had implemented a spyware module that could relay user information if played on a PC. Sony removed the copy protection (at least in those countries, where laws allowed for returning the CDs, if they wouldn't play on a given CD player), AND they did not proceed equipping their CDs with spyware.

I can't remember whether the spyware module was actually active or whether it was just an inactive part of the copy-protection package, it doesn't matter tho. The fact that it landed on the CD (for whatever reason) counts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

I personally don't see what the whole big deal is about steam.I've never had problems with it.It doesn't restrict installs, you certainly don't have be online to play, it sits on your desktop and bothers no one, and I can connect with friends.

The "big" deal is where Steam, or any other activation/authentification software, spies on you. If you don't have a problem with that, fair enough, to each their own. I don't accept such a policy, and that's why I stay away from Steam, but Starforce protected games, too, especially since their drivers dig themselfs deep into your system.

When Starforce was introduced, for example, game developers/publishers weren't able to either program or obtain a proper uninstall routine from SF to remove and disable the services from/on your computer when you decided to uninstall the game. Publishers like Codemasters, CDV and UbiSoft got quite some bashing from the communities, because the Starforce company didn't care about providing proper removal tools for a long time. There was even an incident where CDV referred to a Codemasters thread, when customers asked for a removal tool, the Starforce guys were that uncooperative ... even a customer like CDV couldn't push the release, nor were they able to offer a customized version.
When I wanted to get rid of the SF drivers completely, after uninstalling CDV's "Panzers - Phase one", I actually had to use the tool offered on Codemasters' website to completely remove that nasty SF.

Anyway, with these "new" industry habits, you rely on the publisher or company running a given service, means you have to trust them that they don't mess with your personal data, that they don't use intrusive modules and that they use proper uninstall routines if you decide to uninstall a game.

As the first Steam versions actually relayed user data (ie. titles and number of mp3 files, but a Valve programmer can surely modify Steam so that it gathers other/more data, anytime), it's not about rumours but about facts. I talked to the IT guy, and he could prove and analyze the extra traffic created by Steam.
I'm not gonna support such proceedings, especially since you don't know what other infos Steam might collect, or whether it's possible that someone could hack or misuse their servers or infos. The Steam servers had been hacked several times, which forced Valve to enhance their server software several times.

Another example would be the hacker who got access to a PC within the team-network running the Everquest servers. He retrieved several hundred thousand credit card numbers and full name/address infos just by getting access to this one computer which shouldn't have been connected to the internet in the first place.

I'm not uber-suspicious, but such details make me avoid some services. Sure, humans make mistakes and there is no 100% secure service/server, but if the service you're supposed to trust even collects data about you (without telling you, so actually spying on you), maybe to save money, or to avoid community uproars, then you know that something is wrong.

In turn, Google transformed to a massive hydra project, they gather all kinda data. Until now, they had used the myriad of infos to improve their own services, and there's no criminal energy or uber-greedy attitude involved, for sure. But I wonder when public oppinion will change, and when Google will become the next big Microsoft (means that many people hate the company). If there's only one tiny incident where people think their data are being misused, Google will be done, and their sophisticated search routines and ad processing won't save them, as their business model is based on millions of users actually using their free services, and .... trusting them. Another company would fill a possibly upcoming gap. So far, people consider Google to be a "good" company. But it might change.

With Steam having a 70% market share, it's rather about having the biggest portfolio of games (= quasi a monopoly), than about acting openly and honestly.

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 1/4/2010 4:03:31 AM >

_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne
---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006

(in reply to Zakhal)

Post #: 45

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 4:28:14 AM

V22 Osprey

Posts: 1593
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp

quote:

ORIGINAL: dogancan

quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp

With a game from Matrix, I decide when and whether I wish to upgrade; sometimes, I prefer the 'old' version of a game. With Steam, upgrades are mandatory and involuntary - sometimes, you actually can't play the game you purchased because Steam is upgrading. Just one of the many reasons why I won't use Steam.

as far as i know, automatic upgrades are optional and you can deactivate them by simply right-clicking on a game from your game list.

I can understand those who wants physical copies or installer files to make a collection of their purchased games. But some (most?) reasons to stay away from steam are false rumours...

I don't want a physical copy for a collection, I want a physical copy as a back-up that I can install when I want to or need to. Having a physical copy (along with an actual manual, not pdf) also gives me the feeling of owning the game. And yes, I would be willing to pay more to get a physical copy.

If I purchase a game, decide I don't really want it, I can always sell the physical copy. What do you do with a game that is just a registered download from Steam?

No, thank you. I'll stick to using sources like Matrix Games, and ignore Steam. I just wish more people felt the same way.

I agree with this.I like having the physical copy.I only use steam for valve games, and even those games I bought retail boxed copy.

However, I do like the fact that with steam if for example I ever lost my Orange Box CDs, all I have to do is install steam to a new computer, go to my games list and select "install game" and it will automatically download and install the games.Unlike when I lost Call of Duty 2 CD, or my Company of Heroes CD key I was stuck buying another copy of those games.

The problem is most of you have 1)never tried steam, or 2)Never gave it a chance.I presume most of you assumed it was just a another DRM, and when you saw it was a DRM it made you panicked and made sound worst than it actually is.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 1/4/2010 4:29:45 AM >

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Post #: 46

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 12:16:06 PM

htuna

Posts: 591
Joined: 1/19/2009
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline

As others have pointed out don't have to do updates. that's an option you can turn off or on. You also don't have to be online (if it's not Multiplayer).. just have it in offline mode. I have multiple IDs.. for the MP games I want to play with my kids... We also can use the same ID if a certain game is on the list on one ID we both want to play (Just go into offline mode)..

I prefer not to have to put a CD/DVD every time I want to play... or search for CD's/DVDs everytime I due a new PC Build.. nor be concerned about whether or not I have a 'backup' of all the games I love.

Steam Rocks!.. End of story!

(in reply to V22 Osprey)

Post #: 47

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 4:19:14 PM

L�tzow

Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

I personally don't see what the whole big deal is about steam.I've never had problems with it.It doesn't restrict

1. You know how it does restrict you first time you're going see the message: "This version is not available in your country". Happened to me with 'King Arthur - the Roleplaying Game' demo and I had to look elsewhere in order to download it. I condemn any kind of censorship, regardless if it's about legal or content issues.

2. Steam disadavantages non American customers as this service charges same amount in Euro as in USD. What means, here in Europe we got to pay ~30% more for a game.

3. Once a title is bound to a steam account, one can't resale it anymore.

(in reply to ckammp)

Post #: 48

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 4:25:59 PM

V22 Osprey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: L�tzow

quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

I personally don't see what the whole big deal is about steam.I've never had problems with it.It doesn't restrict

1. You know how it does restrict you first time you're going see the message: "This version is not available in your country". Happened to me with 'King Arthur - the Roleplaying Game' demo and I had to look elsewhere in order to download it. I condemn any kind of censorship, regardless if it's about legal or content issues.

2. Steam disadavantages non American customers as this service charges same amount in Euro as in USD. What means, here in Europe we got to pay ~30% more for a game.

3. Once a title is bound to a steam account, one can't resale it anymore.

1) & 2) I understand this.So I don't blame you, and in fact it's sad that they do that to out of US customers.Seeing as I'm in American though, I have no problems with steam.What you say though is a valid point.

3) But that's with pretty much every game nowadays except Wargames.I can't resell, my non-Steam version of Company of Heroes, nor can I resell my non-Steam version of World in Conflict.So, ever since DRM and these dang CD keys tied to your online accounts you've been never to resell games anyway.

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Post #: 49

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 6:10:20 PM

Hartford688

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quote:

ORIGINAL: L�tzow

2. Steam disadavantages non American customers as this service charges same amount in Euro as in USD. What means, here in Europe we got to pay ~30% more for a game.

Part of 2) (though not the full 30%) is due to VAT, however. Zero tax in U.S., ~20% in Europe?

(in reply to L�tzow)

Post #: 50

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 6:40:01 PM

leastonh1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
I sincerly hope that Matrix would look into using Steam as a retail channel. I would not want it to take over as the primary or only way of game distribution. But as an alternate secondary source of game distribution it would only serve to increase Matrix game sales.

If Matrix took that route, I'd never buy another game from them. Without a physical copy of the game and patches, I'm really not interested. Thankfully, I'm far from being alone in this regard.

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Post #: 51

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 6:50:17 PM

leastonh1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cmurphy625
As others have pointed out don't have to do updates. that's an option you can turn off or on. You also don't have to be online (if it's not Multiplayer).. just have it in offline mode. I have multiple IDs.. for the MP games I want to play with my kids... We also can use the same ID if a certain game is on the list on one ID we both want to play (Just go into offline mode)..

But, why would you not want updates for a game?? To suggest not using them is barmy. I've never bought a game yet that didn't need at least a couple of patches. What I object to is being told when to download them and that I can't have my own copy of them for future installs

Ok, what about reinstalling games? To give you a typical example...I just reinstalled a boxed copy of a game I have on DVD, along with a number of mods and patches. The game came to around 6Gb (on the DVD I bought). The patches were over 500Mb (on a disc I burned after downloading them) and the mods were all chosen by me from a folder on my HDD, all of which I'd downloaded. Now, tell me please...how on earth having to download that lot after a reinstall or on a new pooter is advantageous?? Absolutely crazy, especially considering the caps most ISP's put on accounts these days. 6 or 7Gb download for one game is a big chunk out of a capped account's monthly allocation. Even with my unlimited account, I wouldn't want to have to do that. Can you imagine doing this several times for all your games after reinstalling Windows or on a new PC? No thank you. I put the discs in and click install. Simple and very quick. You can keep Steam.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cmurphy625
I prefer not to have to put a CD/DVD every time I want to play... or search for CD's/DVDs everytime I due a new PC Build.. nor be concerned about whether or not I have a 'backup' of all the games I love.

Steam Rocks!.. End of story!

Why do you have to put a disc in every time you play? Not all games need this and I'd much rather that than having to download them all and not having my own copies on disc.

Steam Sucks!.. End of story!

< Message edited by Jim_H -- 1/4/2010 6:51:09 PM >

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Post #: 52

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 7:02:40 PM

LarryP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel

quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

I know you guys don't like Steam,

Steam can suck my balls.

Whoring yourself out to them doesn't help my opinion of you.

If their games were free I still wouldn't join. Been there, done that, replaced Windows because of it.

(in reply to NefariousKoel)

Post #: 53

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 7:05:08 PM

LarryP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
I sincerly hope that Matrix would look into using Steam as a retail channel. I would not want it to take over as the primary or only way of game distribution. But as an alternate secondary source of game distribution it would only serve to increase Matrix game sales.

If Matrix took that route, I'd never buy another game from them. Without a physical copy of the game and patches, I'm really not interested. Thankfully, I'm far from being alone in this regard.

I'm with you.

(in reply to leastonh1)

Post #: 54

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 9:12:01 PM

ckammp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
I sincerly hope that Matrix would look into using Steam as a retail channel. I would not want it to take over as the primary or only way of game distribution. But as an alternate secondary source of game distribution it would only serve to increase Matrix game sales.

If Matrix took that route, I'd never buy another game from them. Without a physical copy of the game and patches, I'm really not interested. Thankfully, I'm far from being alone in this regard.

I'm with you.

+1

I love Matrix Games, but if they ever decide to do business with Steam, I'm out. I really doubt that Matrix would ever do something like that, though.

And if you do ,Matrix, please wait until WitE is released and patched!

(in reply to LarryP)

Post #: 55

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 9:51:53 PM

SlickWilhelm

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I think this is a generational question. The folks in my generation(b. 1965) are used to having something physical from the store when they buy something...a CD, a DVD, etc. I'll probably still have my hundreds of classical music CD's sitting on my shelf til they pry them out of my cold, clammy hands.

My son's generation will probably easily assimilate into the "digital distribution" delivery method which will be, IMO, the norm in the future. Oh sure, there will be issues to be worked out(privacy, theft prevention), but in the end we'll all be getting our media in little packets until the next big technology arrives.

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Post #: 56

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 10:35:45 PM

leastonh1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

I think this is a generational question. The folks in my generation(b. 1965) are used to having something physical from the store when they buy something...a CD, a DVD, etc. I'll probably still have my hundreds of classical music CD's sitting on my shelf til they pry them out of my cold, clammy hands.

My son's generation will probably easily assimilate into the "digital distribution" delivery method which will be, IMO, the norm in the future. Oh sure, there will be issues to be worked out(privacy, theft prevention), but in the end we'll all be getting our media in little packets until the next big technology arrives.

I'm sad to say, you're probably right there. I'm of the same generation as you (b. 1968), so can certainly relate to what you're saying. We are in the process of another technology shift and I'll buck the trend as long as I can, being an old fart and all

It's like the transition from vinyl (oh, I wish we could go back to it), to tapes, to CD's & DVD's and now HD and whatever else they come up with to make that obsolete.

< Message edited by Jim_H -- 1/4/2010 10:36:08 PM >

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Post #: 57

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 11:05:00 PM

V22 Osprey

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Your generation just hates new things.

I hate DRM and love Physical copies(I love a nice DVD case to put on the Shelf) but to be honest I see nothing wrong with Steam.I think you guys just can't accept the fact that Steam is a DRM that actually works.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 1/4/2010 11:06:32 PM >

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Post #: 58

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 11:20:59 PM

LarryP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

Your generation just hates new things.

I hate DRM and love Physical copies (I love a nice DVD case to put on the Shelf) but to be honest I see nothing wrong with Steam.I think you guys just can't accept the fact that Steam is a DRM that actually works.

You're 16 and I'm 54. I hate DRM in any form. I love physical copies and I love digital copies as I have a pile of games with Impulse. Nothing makes me happier than buying something new. I love new things, especially electronic. The difference is Impulse does NOT take over my file system on drive C, or any other drive. They also have never given me a virus or two like Steam did two years ago. Also if I need help I can get it within the hour, versus never with Steam.

I also have 56 purchases (games and expansions) with Gamersgate and around 6 games with Direct2Drive, never a problem. I have nothing against digital copies or downloading without a physical copy of a game, just Steam I'm against. I had around 15 purchases with them.

Now we old fogies could say that your generation depends on new things. Expects new things. Worships new things. However, making a blanket statement like that would be pretty ignorant of me. You're an individual and so am I.

< Message edited by LarryP -- 1/5/2010 2:07:50 AM >

(in reply to V22 Osprey)

Post #: 59

RE: Insane Steam Holiday Sale - 1/4/2010 11:39:20 PM

leastonh1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP
You're 16 and I'm 54. I hate DRM in any form. I love physical copies and I love digital copies as I have a pile of games with Impulse. Nothing makes me happier than buying something new. I love new things, especially electronic. The difference is Impulse does NOT take over my file system on drive C, or any other drive. They also have never given me a virus or two like Steam did two years ago. Also if I need help I can get it within the hour, versus never with Steam.

I haven't used Impulse yet, but probably will at some point. I find the Matrix way of distributing products fantastic. A simple download with serial number and patches available as they are released and historically. And/Or a nice boxed copy of the game with a printed manual for only a few extra pounds. Perfect. No drm, no online connection, no hoops. I found gog.com great to use too - completely digital distribution, a great site design with the customer in mind first and foremost. I'm really a fan of digital distribution as long as I can still satisfy the same need as LarryP for having a physical copy as an option.

After posting earlier, I did a quick look at what's installed on my hard drive now and which games I have that can be bought via Steam. Let's suppose I had to reinstall my software on a new drive. Those games I could have bought from Steam alone would total around 20-25Gb in downloads! And that's without any patching. I'm only looking at maybe 6 titles in all, out of 30 or so I have installed currently. I have ALL of these on CD and DVD, along with all the patches seperately, which I wouldn't have with Steam versions. If you guys who buy more than me from Steam ever have to reinstall from scratch, I'd be interested to know if your opinion of this wonderful system changes. Somehow, seriously I doubt it will be for the better.

< Message edited by Jim_H -- 1/4/2010 11:40:34 PM >

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

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Post #: 60