Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

Crussdaddy and bo...it's really a very simply equation. Adding to a game's development team increases the cost of development. In turn, that means the game will need to make more money to recover development costs and make a profit.

Let's be honest...this is a niche title. This is not going to sell hundreds of thousands of copies. It is not going to show up in any but the most niche of wargaming retail outlets. It isn't going to be available from every digital retailer known to man. It isn't going to be in any of those places because it wouldn't sell in this locations.

Adding even one more developer doubles the costs per day of developing a very niche wargame. That in turn doubles how much revenue the game has to generate. The profit margins of niche wargames are small to begin with. Therefore, it wouldn't exactly make a ton of sense to do.

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ORIGINAL: abj9562

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ORIGINAL: bo

I thought maybe Crusssdaddy could have said what I have been feeling all along nicer, but I think the niceness has run its course. I can imagine what all the good olde boys who back Steve and Matrix to the hilt will say, which will be their typical defending of the very long delayed and way overdue MWIF. Not to be be too negative but the offer to buy the game in an above post is a sure bet that that poster will not have to put out any money in 2010. I believe with my heart and soul that the mollycoddling by a lot of you posters that has gone on here for the last five years has caused all the angst that everyone is starting to feel about now, and anyone here who says that there not fed up in their heart with delay after delay of this conversion to the computer is a deep profound PROCRASTINATOR. And after reading that last report from Steve I believe this will not be done this year, I do hope I am proven wrong for the sake of all the very fine posters and game players who try very hard to hold their emotions in check about what is going on here with Steve and Matrix and the terrible delays, maybe some of you fine gentlemen that post here should read a pamphlet by Thomas Paine called "Common Sense" and common sense tells me that something is very wrong here about this conversion, jump all over me if you want I expect it but please use your common sense about this before you blast me.

Bo

I see that you edited your post from calling everyone who disagreed with you from a LIAR to a PROCRASTINATOR. Those of us who receve this thread by email know what you put in your original post; but we also just consider the source.

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ORIGINAL: abj9562

I propose that we give Steve the Ironman award. After all he has stuck to this program with extreme dilligence. Even in the face of adversity his skin must be made of Iron or Steel to ignore a lot of these posts. Or, he must have one heck of a good sense of humor and constantly rolls on the floor in laughter at some of these posts. In which case maybe we should pay for a hip replacement.

Anyways, I have said this over and over. 
It will be done when it is done. 
By the way does anyone get the feeling the Crussdaddy may also be Werewolf. The tone and the style of writing seems very similiar to me anyways? Just a thought.

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ORIGINAL: bo

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ORIGINAL: abj9562

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ORIGINAL: bo

I thought maybe Crusssdaddy could have said what I have been feeling all along nicer, but I think the niceness has run its course. I can imagine what all the good olde boys who back Steve and Matrix to the hilt will say, which will be their typical defending of the very long delayed and way overdue MWIF. Not to be be too negative but the offer to buy the game in an above post is a sure bet that that poster will not have to put out any money in 2010. I believe with my heart and soul that the mollycoddling by a lot of you posters that has gone on here for the last five years has caused all the angst that everyone is starting to feel about now, and anyone here who says that there not fed up in their heart with delay after delay of this conversion to the computer is a deep profound PROCRASTINATOR. And after reading that last report from Steve I believe this will not be done this year, I do hope I am proven wrong for the sake of all the very fine posters and game players who try very hard to hold their emotions in check about what is going on here with Steve and Matrix and the terrible delays, maybe some of you fine gentlemen that post here should read a pamphlet by Thomas Paine called "Common Sense" and common sense tells me that something is very wrong here about this conversion, jump all over me if you want I expect it but please use your common sense about this before you blast me.

Bo

I see that you edited your post from calling everyone who disagreed with you from a LIAR to a PROCRASTINATOR. Those of us who receve this thread by email know what you put in your original post; but we also just consider the source.

I appreciate it if you would reconsider the source, I am honest with my feelings to the core ABJ, I dont sugar coat, I dont really try to hurt anyones feelings except maybe Matrix for whom I blame for this travesty of time to make a game, I did put liar in there and then thought about it and did something I never thought I would do back down from my feelings and my common sense, and I noticed instead of commenting on the rest of my post you instead tried to discredit me with a change I made to soften my words but now I wish I had not done so. If the shoe fits WEAR IT!

Bo

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ORIGINAL: abj9562

Sorry for second post. Considering the source was meant as a reference to your relatively new membership in April and your expierance in these forums over time.

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ORIGINAL: abj9562

I did not say I had the power to ban anyone. I am just requesting moderator action as this has gotton out of hand. You have called me names and a Liar. This is my last response to you.

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ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

Some people keep harping on a business model that from thier own words shows a lack of understanding the software business. To imply that Matrix did not allocate the proper resources to the project is based upon what they wish for and not reality. ADG and Matrix have a contract (for Matrix to publish a product), Matrix and Steve have a contract (for Steve to create a product). Outside these three major players anyone can comment pro or con on the project, and that is fine.

Yet, since they did not have input on either of these contracts and have no financial stake (or actual knowledge of the financials) to say the proper resources were not committed is at best an uninformed opinion, and at worse, a whine.

They have proved nothing beyond an opinion that lacks facts. Everyone knows that this project will take more time to complete. This does not confirm proper resources were not committed, it only means it is not finished yet. It appears that to complete the project and have an acceptable return-on-investment (ROI) has required more time than many people want. That people are upset is understandable, but that does not change the facts of this project one bit. Some people say "add more staff" but this doesn't work for Matrix or Steve if the ROI goes negative. This fact cannot be changed.

Software is not like building a normal product like say a table or a TV set, people don't like to hear this, and many don't understand why, but it is reality. COST vs RETURN requires INFORMED balance to succeed and have a profitable ROI.

Am I happy it is not finished yet, no.
Will it be finished in 2010, I hope so.
Is there another publisher/programmer that is beating down the doors of ADG, Matrix or Steve to take it over this financial risk, I doubt it.

A person posting that it does not meet his or her expectations is fine, repeating them just turns into is just a childish WHINE.

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ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

CrussDaddy

Sounds to me like you are frustrated because you can't play WiF. Maybe your local group broke up or maybe you never had a group to play FtF with? I can understand this. I'd be feeling the same way if I couldn't play this great game. But I can, and so can you as long as you have a computer with 2meg of RAM and a decent internet connection. You can play WiF on Vassal. You can play live online or you can play PBEM. Both work great. Most of us play a combination of the two. The WiF module was created by Ken Griffiths. It is really no different than playing in your buddies basement except that you move the counters by click and drag with your mouse. It doesn't take up a whole room. You don't have to worry about the cat messing up your table. You can play people all over the world (although similar time zones are usually easier to manage.) The games actually go faster than when you meet with a group once a week or once a month because you can play every day (provided you have an understanding wife). I've played dozen of these games, mostly by PBEM. I'm currently in a Vassal game that is at the end of JF45 with Jerome. Started that one 13 months ago. Ken and I are playing a game we started in November that is already in MA42! In many ways I prefer Vassal games to FtF. Especially after the two snow storms I had to drive through to get back from local game, 70 miles from my home. I look forward to MWiF when it is completed. It will make a few things easier. And I look forward to being able to try some weird strategies against the AI, even if the AI is not competitive.... just to see how they play out. I'm also looking forward to playng China on the European scale. But it is easy to be patient because I am having so much fun playing WiF on vassal. Give it a try. You can usually find opponents on the WiFlist. I could even direct a few people your way if needed.

Cheers

John

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ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

In response to a previous poster, I don't think my writing style really matches that of werewolf, and I don't think you have to look particularly closely to notice the differences. Same sentiments, yes - is it really so hard to believe that more than one person is fed up with the abject failure of MWiF? It's no longer a matter of hoping for light at the end of the tunnel - the tunnel has collapsed at both ends and become a grave.

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Some people say "add more staff" but this doesn't work for Matrix or Steve if the ROI goes negative. This fact cannot be changed.

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Steve, i offer an advice: Don't give too much importance to these comments, there is a lot of people who support you and your honest way to develope the game. Paying attention to disdainful comments that only mean to itch you is not necessary, since all these matters have been debated and explained already. If somebody goes on with this song it's because of personal reasons.

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ORIGINAL: bo

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ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

Crussdaddy and bo...it's really a very simply equation. Adding to a game's development team increases the cost of development. In turn, that means the game will need to make more money to recover development costs and make a profit.

Let's be honest...this is a niche title. This is not going to sell hundreds of thousands of copies. It is not going to show up in any but the most niche of wargaming retail outlets. It isn't going to be available from every digital retailer known to man. It isn't going to be in any of those places because it wouldn't sell in this locations.

Adding even one more developer doubles the costs per day of developing a very niche wargame. That in turn doubles how much revenue the game has to generate. The profit margins of niche wargames are small to begin with. Therefore, it wouldn't exactly make a ton of sense to do.

No disagreement at all with what you say, your right on as always but come on six years.

Bo

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ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Does your undocumented support to a decision that is not yours help sooth anyone? No.

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ORIGINAL: 1962joe

I KNOW SIR THAT YOUR WORKING HARD TO GET WORLD IN FLAMES TO THE PUBLIC AND SUCH A LARGE GAME WILL TAKE TIME BUT SIR DO YOU HAVE A ROUGH IDEA WHEN THE GAME WILL BE READY FOR SALE.I DON'T BUY AS MANY GAMES AS I USE TO BUT MATRIX WAS A DELIGHT TO FIND FOR TURN BASE GAMES,I GUESS I CAME FROM THE BOARD GAMES TIME IN THE 80'S AND I LIKE VERY MUCH TO BUY WIF FOR THE PC. THANKS

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ORIGINAL: mark.patrick

Owned the old Avalon Hill "Rise and Decline of the Third Reich" board game title, eons ago. What a tedious pain-in-the-butt to play...and was absolutely facinated by it anyway, like no other game before or since. I spent hours over that board. I actually mastered the rule set and played the entire campaign, solitaire, at least a dozen times. The Axis took Gibralter once, Suez on another occasion and defeated the USSR on yet another. Played to essentially a draw a few times also. It made me fully appreciate just how close the world came to the abyss, had Herr Hitler not been such a total dumb*** as a military strategist. Of course, there was Fat Man and Little Boy, so who really knows? Still, big fun, if you're one of those weirdos that's likes this sort of thing. And boy do we, huh? Never found a human opponent who could even begin to comprehend the rules, let alone play against me. One guy tried, but never got past the "befuddled" stage. I've been looking for something like it on the computer, ever since. Well, this is certainly it, on steroids, so please don't give up. There are probably many more out there just like me, merely watching...and waiting.

Ok, back to lurking...

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ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

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ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Does your undocumented support to a decision that is not yours help sooth anyone? No.

I was not trying to sooth anyone.

My opinion:

1) People will not be happy until the product is released (but be careful what you wish for).

2) We as potential customers CANNOT effect a change to the completion date (no matter how much some think we can) nor should we.

3) Anyone who complains about the time this is taking should look to Avalon Hills attempt at making computer Third Reich.

3RPC took about five years to complete (with a larger staff), customers complained about the time it took, and it was pushed out the door BEFORE it should have been (IMO as a beta-tester on the project) for a number of reasons. The result was a poor product that couldn't even strickly follow simpler rules than MWIF will have to deal with.

I do not blindly support all the choices that have been made in this project, but I support the concept of trying to get it as right as possible before publication.

4) I don't believe anybody has been misinformed about dates. They are estimates and sometimes they slip. Better to slip than release a poor product. See #3 if you disagree here.

5) If you don't like to see estimates or follow the progress of the project then avoid this forum. I am sure that once MWIF is for sale it will appear on the main page where everbody that visits Matrix will see it. Estimates are not a problem.

Final: I believe we all want a fine product. Good software takes time, rush it and you will not be happy.

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ORIGINAL: Ohio Jones

1. I am surely disappointed that MWIF hasn't been released before this, just as is everyone on this forum, no doubt. I'd wager there are also a great many people who may not even realize this project exists, but who have long wished for a great WWII strategy game to play on the computer.

2. As frustrated as we are, it's likely nobody is as frustrated as Steve must be. He obviously takes pride in doing good work, and it must be galling to the project manager in him to have had so many key dates and projections slip. That said, they are projections, and as such are subject to the many vagaries of program development. A developer and a publisher with less commitment to quality than to filling a slot in their release schedule to satisfy their marketing department would have made different decisions and pushed out a product long since. And it would suck. I for one am glad that Steve and Matrix are taking a different approach, and are releasing this when it's ready, and not before. The good folks at Pixar, who have risen to the top of the film industry in terms of putting out quality movies that receive great critical and public acclaim, do so because they are not slaves to their release schedule, but rather focus on the quality of their product (most notably story) in an age when many production companies will settle for "good enough" in order to have something in the hopper to release. Pixar - and its audience - are rewarded for their patience. I believe we will be as well. My only hope is that, when the product is finally released, Steve is able (after a no doubt much-needed break from it) to enjoy playing the game with a feeling of pride and accomplishment.

3. This game is being developed on the assumption that its market includes not only people who haven't played WiF before (in any incarnation), but also people who may never have played a strategic wargame. As a result, there is a lot of parallel development required - outside the game engine itself - in order to provide guidance through the experience for new players. That suggests that Matrix sees a market for this product outside the (sadly aging) diehard grognads. It also suggests that those who - like me - were never bright (or obsessed) rnogh to memorize the whole game will still be able to play and enjoy this version. That strikes me as a good thing.

4. That said, the overwhelming bulk of ingenuity and work effort to date has been devoted to completely re-engineering the logic of CWIF into a modular system of decision points - something that may in fact be harder than simply creating a program from scratch. This is extremely critical from a programming perspective, not only because it significantly improves the efficiency of operation of the program (resulting in faster turns), but more importantly because it is critical to preparing the game for PBEM, Netplay and especially a functioning AIO. There is work still to be done, to be sure, but that work would not have been possible without the strong programming foundation Steve has built. Sadly, we users wil never see that code directly to appreciate the work Steve put in, but I believe we will see the benefits of it when we have a smoothly functioning version of an incredibly sophisticated and complex game on our desktops and laptops.

And for that, as disappointed and frustrated as I am, I am fully prepared to wait.

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ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

I had a very nice exchange of emails with Harry Rowland - it was my first chance to get in touch with him directly, and I was not disappointed with his politeness and candor.

In any case, my view that 2010 is a critical year for MWiF is shared by others, and I think frustration with Matrix extends much deeper than simply anxious fans. Nothing in Steve's year-end update suggests a game this year, but I am confident that we shall see progress of a sort nonetheless. After seven years, something's better than nothing...

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

I had a very nice exchange of emails with Harry Rowland - it was my first chance to get in touch with him directly, and I was not disappointed with his politeness and candor.

In any case, my view that 2010 is a critical year for MWiF is shared by others, and I think frustration with Matrix extends much deeper than simply anxious fans. Nothing in Steve's year-end update suggests a game this year, but I am confident that we shall see progress of a sort nonetheless. After seven years, something's better than nothing...

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

I had a very nice exchange of emails with Harry Rowland - it was my first chance to get in touch with him directly, and I was not disappointed with his politeness and candor.

In any case, my view that 2010 is a critical year for MWiF is shared by others, and I think frustration with Matrix extends much deeper than simply anxious fans. Nothing in Steve's year-end update suggests a game this year, but I am confident that we shall see progress of a sort nonetheless. After seven years, something's better than nothing...

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805