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Carrier Air Group Question - 7/1/2002 6:01:23 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Hi guys,

Just got the Waltzing Matilda (Yorktown) back from lengthy repairs. I had removed the airgroup to Noumea prior to sending her to the docks so she arrived empty. I transferred VF 42, and both VS5 and VB5 no problem, but then I realised... the Dauntless Sqdns now have 24 planes in each, and the sunken Lexington dive bomber orphans have increased to 36 planes each. (Should be limited to 18 so they all fit, no?) VF and VT groups seem maxed at 36 and 15 planes respectively. Also, I can't seem to transfer VT5 onto Yorktown regardless of what I try or how empty Yorktown is. Grrr. Something more iffy than the Long Island black hole.

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Post #: 1
- 7/1/2002 7:48:25 AM   
Gary D


Posts: 164
Joined: 6/6/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Ron;

The best work around to this bug that I have found is to unload everything but the TBF's. Next turn load the VF guys. Next turn load the SBD's. Mine came aboard although they were oversized. The SBD squadrons ended up with 5 or six reserve aircraft each but I had the all important 36 fighters.

This works for me about 70% of the time. Other bugs that have cropped up after removing an airwing from a carrier include A-20 phantom squadrons moving aboard; 50+ plane VF squadrons that crash the game, and airwings with very few fighters.

Now as a rule I don't strip the CAGs off the CV's just to avoid this.

V/r
Gary

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 2
Incredible growing squadrons - 7/1/2002 1:12:45 PM   
jww60

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline 		The Yorktown was hammered pretty hard off of PNG. Most of her Air Group went ashore (Port Moresby). I pulled the Yorktown into Cairns to repair Flotation damage and unloaded the rest of her Air Group (VT-5, 1/VF-42, 1/VS-5, and 1/VB-5). I brought all of her A/C to Cairns to merge the detachments. A couple of turns later I notice that VF-42 is has 36 F4F-3's and the SBD squadrons are both up to 24 SBDs. Only the Devastator squadron is at its normal squadron. I used the Damaged Lexington as a mid-ocean airfield to get the squadrons back to Noumea (via Brisbane). When I transferred VF-42 (36 F4F-3) to the Lexington a detachment of 7 F4f-3s remained behind at Brisbane being repaired, this was called 1/VF-42. On arriving in Noumea the 29 F4F-3s were upgraded to 36 F4F-4s. When I finally managed to transfer 1/VF-42 to Noumea it couldn't merge with a unit of different A/C (F4F-4 vice F4F-3) so these 7 A/C remained a separate detachment. There were no remaining F4F-3 units so I could not disband or withdraw the unit. When the detachment upgraded to F4F-4 it received 36 of them and the merged with the parent unit giving VF-42 a total of 72 F4F-4s. So, unit strengths for these squadrons are: VF-42: 72 F4F-4 VS-5: 24 SBD VB-5: 24 SBD with 14 Reserve SBD VT-5: 15 TBD I do have a save from right before the merge showing the detachment at 36 F4F-4. How am I supposed to get the Air Group back on a carrier when the VF, VS and VB squadrons swell up like this? It looks like the carrier based squadrons take on different characteristics when sent ashore for any reason. --Jeff

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 3
- 7/1/2002 3:24:29 PM   
strollen

 

Posts: 159
Joined: 5/18/2002
Status: offline 		I am pretty sure that you can load just 3 Sqds. The 36 SBD, 36 Wildcats and 15 TBD/F and they work the same as 2 18 plane squadrons.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 4
- 7/1/2002 3:44:28 PM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by strollen
[B]I am pretty sure that you can load just 3 Sqds. The 36 SBD, 36 Wildcats and 15 TBD/F and they work the same as 2 18 plane squadrons. [/B][/QUOTE]

Except when the AG in question fails both it's morale and leadership checks and then refuses to fly. ;)

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Post #: 5
- 7/1/2002 8:06:48 PM   
jww60

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline 		Its really a little academic right now. The Yorktown had 70 sys damage and 72 flt damage. She can only do 9 knots max (downhill, with a tailwind) and although the flt damage was repaired at Cairns she is still limping back to Noumea with 70 sys damage (with a stop in Brisbane). Too bad I can't send her back to Pearl Harbor from Brisbane. So her Air Group isn't going to sea anytime soon. Still, it would be good to be able to shrink those squadrons. I can't even put them on a CVE. -Jeff

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 6
- 7/1/2002 10:12:01 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		"A-20 phantom squadrons moving aboard"

LOL. Commercial end-user as Beta Tester. Great. Bet you wold not complain, though, if they had been "F4-Phantom" squadrons. Does ECM stop 25mm?

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 7
- 7/2/2002 10:31:30 AM   
von Murrin


Posts: 1760
Joined: 11/13/2001
From: That from which there is no escape.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by mdiehl
[B]"A-20 phantom squadrons moving aboard"

LOL. Commercial end-user as Beta Tester. Great. Bet you wold not complain, though, if they had been "F4-Phantom" squadrons. Does ECM stop 25mm? [/B][/QUOTE]

Ummm.... ok.

The A-20 is the "default" graphic the game decided to use for empty squadrons. It goes away when planes and pilots start to arrive.

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I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 8
Re: Carrier Air Group Question - 7/4/2002 7:38:03 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
[B]Hi guys,

Just got the Waltzing Matilda (Yorktown) back from lengthy repairs. I had removed the airgroup to Noumea prior to sending her to the docks so she arrived empty. I transferred VF 42, and both VS5 and VB5 no problem, but then I realised... the Dauntless Sqdns now have 24 planes in each, and the sunken Lexington dive bomber orphans have increased to 36 planes each. (Should be limited to 18 so they all fit, no?) VF and VT groups seem maxed at 36 and 15 planes respectively. Also, I can't seem to transfer VT5 onto Yorktown regardless of what I try or how empty Yorktown is. Grrr. Something more iffy than the Long Island black hole. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, the only actual case of this that I have run across was the remnants of the Big E's squadrons (less 6 fighters for CAP and 6 SBDs for ASW) after the Eastern Solomons. These squadrons never rebuilt in theater. They flew until the aircraft was lost (became unflyable) and then the crews were rotated back to the States and new assignments. Then when the Enterprise returned 2 months later, she had on board a new air group (Ten instead of Six). The air group Six reformed and served later on other carriers.

It would be a nice way to do it if it could be incorporated by the code easily. Not sure if that is possible though, as you would be creating special cases for certain AGs (which would only happen if a carrier AG remains in theatre while the carrier leaves).

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Post #: 9
- 7/4/2002 8:56:27 AM   
Gary D


Posts: 164
Joined: 6/6/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Gent's;

Like I mentioned above I will not voluntarily remove squadrons from a carrier to avoid introducing gremlins into a game that I have invested a lot of (enjoyable) time in.

The current problem related to this one, and the bug which is improperly alloting way too many pilots or not near enough, involves the Enterprise and CAG-6. Big E went down off Tassafaronga. The majority of her wing was airborne sinking three IJN CV's, and they diverted into Lunga and Irau.

OK, I can use 15 talented VF guys and a dozen SBD's. The leftovers did great work for six months. In February 43 who shows up as a reinforcement but CAG-6. 36 F4F's, 3 pilots. 2 squadrons of SBD's with a total of 6 pilots. These squadrons pulled a "loaves and fishes" trick and grew to 24 active and 12 aircraft in reserve each. The TBF's were normal.

Now my remnants join back up with the parent squadrons and we now have a 51 plane shore based VF squadron with less than 20 pilots. Same thing with the SBD's. Along the way these mutant squadrons have drained the replacement pools, the Navy screws the Marine Corps one more time!

To avoid all these issues I would prefer that the game was just coded so that the CAGs were permanently hardwired to a CV. CV goes down, good bye airwing. I agree with Rowlf, that with one exception that is "the way it was".

V/r
Gary

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 10
- 7/4/2002 4:23:28 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		I don't believe air groups were permanantly based/attached on/to a particular CV, the exception being the IJN. Many times a spent air group was working up while an operational airgroup was on the parent carrier in combat. I just think there is a problem with the Navy airgroups themselves, among others. Hard code the maximum number of a/c per group so they can be mixed and matched. Also, I've seen BS's with 1 plane which might balloon to a whopping 3 a/c. Is this historical in the Pacific?

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 11
- 7/4/2002 11:33:35 PM   
jww60

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline 		Saratoga's air group was also left in the theater after her torpedoing. They sat at Noumea until November when the Allies got really serious about finding more resources for Guadalcanal. I haven't looked for it but I would be unsurprised to find that the aircraft from Hornet and Wasp were also left in theater (even if the personnel were sent home). As desperate as they were for aircraft I doubt the local commanders would want to ship aircraft out of the area. Sending carriers back to Pearl Harbor alone isn't terribly historical either. They should be snagging some of your destroyers (at least) to escort each CV home. --Jeff

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 12
- 7/5/2002 12:27:52 AM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		I would like to see Major Fleet Units arrive in a TF (instead of at anchor), and have to be sent back as a TF.

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Post #: 13
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