RE: TOAW - A Pain in the Butt

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RE: TOAW - A Pain in the Butt

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> RE: TOAW - A Pain in the Butt

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RE: TOAW - A Pain in the Butt - 1/22/2010 4:38:55 PM

erichswafford

Posts: 602
Joined: 5/14/2008
Status: offline

Ok, you guys are going to detest this little suggestion of mine, but hear me out.

First, does anyone recall playing Sid Meier's 8 bit wargames? There was Crusade in Europe, Decision in the Desert and a Vietnam one. These were actually excellent operational wargames, but they weren't turn-based. They were best described as continuous. Meaning, you never had to wonder if a division was actually late, because - it was late! I remember the tension of waiting to assemble my forces for an attack. I had a really great feel. And sometimes you'd just have to go with what you had. It did a great job of showing how maneuver could trump fire - I you knew what you were doing. You also had to develop a keen eye for distances and rates of movement to guesstimate how long a unit might be able to traverse a particular piece of ground.

Anyway, it worked well and I'm obviously quite fond of the system, since it seemed to nicely replicate what TOAW is trying to do in it's slightly clunky way. Instead of allowing the player to move wherever and then using bookkeeping to keep track of how much of the turn it had actually used in doing so, you had the very simple and elegant expedient of just watching the damn unit...move. No question as to where it "really is" at any moment.

Now, obviously you could pause whenever you wanted, and you could accelerate time as well. Anyway - if you guys ever get a chance, you should really check it out. I honestly think an update of that system would just be incredible. The Hearts of Iron series uses the same concept, but I hate how little control you actually have over what happens. Those game just seem to play themselves and it's hard to implement any sort of real operational plan. It's the wargame eqivalent of 'button mashing' in fighting games. Not what I'm talking about.

Imaging playing TOAW3 but instead of turns you just have a continuous flow of movement that you can interrupt at any time to issue orders. Or, you you could make it even more realistic by limiting the number of orders, etc within a certain time period.

God I wish I knew how to program!

(in reply to Zaratoughda)

Post #: 61

RE: TOAW - A Pain in the Butt - 1/24/2010 1:18:15 AM

Zaratoughda

Posts: 714
Joined: 11/15/2008
From: NE Pa, USA
Status: offline

kondor...

I in fact purchased all three of these games... have em stowed away somewhere.. and have them in zip files here on my computer. Would be interesting to get em up and running under DosBox.

But, the one problem I had with these games... is giving orders and then having to WAIT until they were executed. You could speed up the time but still that was a bit of a problem.

Still, I enjoyed Crusade in Europe so I guess that is the bottom line. I imagine I brought up the other two but never really got into them (CiV was a bit difficult emotinally due to me being a VietNam era vet).

The game on Operation Overlord that I got the most out of was Grigbsy's Western Front. Was fun orging all the Aussies, NZers, SAers, French, Polish, etc, and then moving forward with them. Was easy to get into that game also starting with the Italian front and then moving to Operation Overlord.

Whatever,

Zaratoughda

(in reply to erichswafford)

Post #: 62

RE: TOAW - A Pain in the Butt - 1/31/2010 1:16:41 PM

Obsolete

Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline

Zara, I understand your points. Given the choice between TOAW and Panzer General, I tend to want to go the later. Yes that may surprise some in here, and perhaps its the nostalgia that clouds my judgement :P

But I do agree, in TOAW every time I do a move I feel as though I'm doing some sort of dangerous gambit. I'm often too scared to do a heavy attack because I don't want to burn off too much time, but then I don't feel I'm playing optimal (or whatever you want to call it). And even when going light, you find out your silly little SCOUT-CAR ends up burning off a little too much extra time and then it's....

"Ohhh sh******it!!!!"

AI's Turn now...

And now all those other units you were planning to move into their proper positions are sitting idle and get countered and creamed despite making no reaslistic sense what-so-ever.

I guess you have to trade off something somewhere down the lines with this sort of game-mechanic. Anyhow, I understand that this game was rated WarGame of the year (98 IIRC?), so I will at least feel at peace that there are many out there who at least though this design was supposed to be superior to anything else out there (at that time!).

_____________________________

King-Tigers don't let Tiger-I's get over-run.

(in reply to Zaratoughda)

Post #: 63

RE: TOAW - A Pain in the Butt - 1/31/2010 5:06:43 PM

Posts: 1247
Joined: 9/20/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

And now all those other units you were planning to move into their proper positions are sitting idle and get countered and creamed despite making no reaslistic sense what-so-ever.

For me at least, this mechanic brings to my computer the age old concept of "no plan survives contact with the enemy." (and it's corollary.. "a lot of plans don't even make it to the battlefield")

(in reply to Obsolete)

Post #: 64

RE: TOAW - A Pain in the Butt - 1/31/2010 11:19:49 PM

Obsolete

Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline

Now that would sum-up Operation Market-Garden quite well now wouldn't it!?

_____________________________

King-Tigers don't let Tiger-I's get over-run.

(in reply to E)

Post #: 65

RE: TOAW - A Pain in the Butt - 2/1/2010 6:52:44 AM

Zaratoughda

Posts: 714
Joined: 11/15/2008
From: NE Pa, USA
Status: offline

kondor recommended the SSG games and I picked up Korsun Pocket and... that is a nice game.... more historical than Panzer General but more playable than TOAW. Actually, it's a bit like a boardgame with 'steps' on the counters.... except more sophisticated.

I DLed the scenarios that had AI in them from the RUN5 site and was playing the Husky scenario and started on the Veliki Luki scenario and they are both interesting and fun to play.

Oh yeah, the one thing about those games is the TINY counters (lol)... but there isn't that much information on them.... it all goes on the side... and you get used to it.

Zaratoughda

(in reply to Obsolete)

Post #: 66

RE: TOAW - A Pain in the Butt - 2/5/2010 9:56:22 AM

Caz Collins

Posts: 17
Joined: 3/9/2009
From: United States
Status: offline

I really like the idea of putting the unit designations on the counter face (on the map) and leaving the combat strengths visible in the upper-right corner info window. Sort of like the ability to toggle between combat strengths and movement allowances now. Would make AARs a whole lot easier.

Randy

(in reply to Zaratoughda)

Post #: 67