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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 1:30:30 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		Nice map.  Thanks.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 2:48:47 PM   
USSLockwood

 

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Status: offline 		I'm fearful that General Mud is about to raise his ugly head.

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Post #: 452
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 3:15:29 PM   
Balou


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quote:

Cutting off the Crimea and advancing east to a line running from Kharkov to Melitopol would be historical. The Axis advanced further than that in real life, but your progress is already lagging behind in the area so it's unlikely you'll reach the historical targets. There's no need to in any case. A line from Moscow running south to the Sea of Azov would be good enough. There's no strategic need to advance to Rostov in 1941.


In one of the posts the designers told us that - in WitE - you earn victory points for sov cities. At the same time you can seriously damage sov industrial capabilities which turns out in lesser supplies, oil, resources for factories and ultimately in AFV, planes etc, while your own economy receives some boost from resource/oil centers having been captured. I have added a map submitted by elmo (see attachment) that shows "factories". My point is: elmo won't probably go as far as the Axis did in fall/winter 41. Except from Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk, no major city seems to be in reach, but at least he could try to zero in on some of those factory centers.

It would be nice to learn from the dev team if there are some "tables" that a sov.player may consult to see how much resources/oil/factories he still holds. Although it seems that "victory points" for holding a city outweigh "factories/centers lost" one player may even consider trade-offs to some point.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 453
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 4:47:56 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

In one of the posts the designers told us that - in WitE - you earn victory points for sov cities. At the same time you can seriously damage sov industrial capabilities which turns out in lesser supplies, oil, resources for factories and ultimately in AFV, planes etc, while your own economy receives some boost from resource/oil centers having been captured. I have added a map submitted by elmo (see attachment) that shows "factories". My point is: elmo won't probably go as far as the Axis did in fall/winter 41. Except from Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk, no major city seems to be in reach, but at least he could try to zero in on some of those factory centers.

It would be nice to learn from the dev team if there are some "tables" that a sov.player may consult to see how much resources/oil/factories he still holds. Although it seems that "victory points" for holding a city outweigh "factories/centers lost" one player may even consider trade-offs to some point.


To me, the main objective for the Axis in 1941 should be maximum gains for minimal losses and the creation of a stable defensive line prior to December. Overextension is not worth the risk to the Axis IMHO. A shorter line will also shorten the line for the Soviets, but in 1941 this is much better for the Axis than the Soviets, because they'll be lacking large quantities of credible forces that could break through a defensive line manned by rested and fairly up to strength Axis forces. If the Axis advance too far, history will probably repeat itself and they'll take disproportionate losses compared to the quality of the troops engaging them. If you miss out on some victory points in order to make sure half your army doesn't end up understrength, that's more than worth it. The Axis need to preserve forces, the Soviets need to hold territory, it's not the other way around.

I'm guessing the AI has moved every factory in the western and central Ukraine to the east by now, at least that would be the sensible thing to do. A continued Axis advance would be so slow that the remaining factories could also be moved. Taking factories/production centres is of course an important part of the war in the East, but by now the gains probably won't justify the losses.

If I read the map correctly, the 3 dots west of Rostov are (from left to right) Berdyansk, Mariupol and Taganrog. If you take a look at the map I linked to earlier, advancing further than Berdyansk would create a serious overextension of the line. Preferably the Axis will advance until Melitopol (south of Zaporizhzhya, the red dot south of Dnepropetrovsk) and reach the Sea of Azov south of it. Likewise, advancing to Moscow is likely to be pointless if you can't hold on to Tula and Klin.

I'm not a gambler, I won't go much further than calculated risks, and overextension is a big no-no for me.

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Post #: 454
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 5:03:20 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		Well I'm afraid real life is conspiring against me today guys.  Unlikely I will have time for my next turn but we'll see.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 5:25:54 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		I am not a fan of an overextended frontline either. What I want to hear from the dev/AAR team is what are reasonable objectives in a situation like this, where a major part of the Ukraine is still under sov control. Agreed, the Axis will soon have to dig in, for a couple of good reasons you mentioned. My "problem" is that I don't have to much knowledge about what is realistic within game mechanics. I went across a couple of posts to find out e.g. how far units can move - well at least I know that there are MP and that the amount of MP is displayed, but I don't know what are the minimums and the maximums for let's say a PzDiv or InfDiv in clear weather, in mud and so forth. So maybe we can deduce from the AAR-author (elmo) what he expects to be realistic objectives. For example: "Kharkov is out of reach even under best weather conditions".

Relocation of factories: in one of the posts the dev team mentioned that sov rail capacities are limited to the point that by far not all industries can be evacuated, since the Sov need a lot of rail capacity for moving troops to hotspots.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 7:02:15 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

Relocation of factories: in one of the posts the dev team mentioned that sov rail capacities are limited to the point that by far not all industries can be evacuated, since the Sov need a lot of rail capacity for moving troops to hotspots.


"Limited" as in: limited if you want to move troops to the front by rail. To me, relocation of the factories would have priority over moving large numbers of men to the front. Even in its best shape, a Rifle division isn't going to stop the German advance. If you look at the strength value, they're about 1 offensive/1 defensive strength for most units. I doubt a Rifle division that has plenty of disabled equipment due to a long march will have a significantly lower life expectancy than a regular Rifle division assuming the enemy wants to break through.

As, weirdly, there doesn't seem to be a system in place where a greater distance travelled costs more rail points, you can dump the factories in or beyond the Urals for the same cost as moving them 10 kilometres.

After a few turns moving most frontline factories to the rear, rail transport could be spend on moving units into the area. The Axis advance is simply unstoppable in many areas, so moving out the factories seems like the best thing to do. A Sir Robin defense seems to be a good strategy for the Soviets. The Soviets can afford to lose land, especially if the factories are gone. Defending the border areas will only mean sending men to their deaths for the Soviets. More than a token defense doesn't seem to be a good idea.

It's all about the preferred playing style as the Soviets, though. I prefer a defensive style with backhand blows in most wargames. The AI in Elmo's case seems to be more defensive than the Soviets were in real life too, not wasting many men on futile counteroffensives. Soviet units in crucial areas do seem to be short on manpower, the Axis advance to Moscow was a bit easy after a troubling start. Elmo's advance, with a minor advance in the south and the emphasis in the center, would be possible in real life, but the Soviet player should be able to stage a more capable defense than the AI in Elmo's game.

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Post #: 457
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 7:45:11 PM   
Balou


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quote:

As, weirdly, there doesn't seem to be a system in place where a greater distance travelled costs more rail points, you can dump the factories in or beyond the Urals for the same cost as moving them 10 kilometres


Where did this info came from ? It just wouldn't make sense.

quote:

After a few turns moving most frontline factories to the rear, rail transport could be spend on moving units into the area.


Just for your information, I added what I did find in: The Soviet economy and the Red Army, 1930-1945 by Walter Scott Dunn (see attachment).






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 458
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 9:08:35 PM   
wiking62


Posts: 141
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Status: offline 		Is the distance a routed unit moves limited?

How exactly do the game mechanics work, ie. does a unit have to be disrupted before it routs?

Will the Axis forces suffer attrition during winter turns, especially in 1941?

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Post #: 459
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 12:41:01 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

... The AI in Elmo's case seems to be more defensive than the Soviets were in real life too, not wasting many men on futile counteroffensives. ...


Just a quick note on this while I have a minute tonight. One thing you can't see easily (or at all I guess) in my AAR is that on many of my attacks the AI is committing reserves to the battles. These troops are considered to be counterattacking. So even though the AI is not initiating many if any attacks they are constantly counterattacking.


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Post #: 460
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 12:54:57 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		On turn 15 (9/25/41) the 4th Pz Grp got to the outskirts of Pushkin while 18th Army liquidated the pocket along the coast.  Pushkin is well defended and the Soviets have built level 5 fortifications there so we'll need some Luftwaffe help before assaulting the place.




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Post #: 461
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 1:06:22 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		AGC made more progress to the southwest of Moscow but I don't like the looks of this bulge at all.  We can survive it if Mud comes but it is likely our weakly defended flanks wold crumble in Blizzard turns and most of the bulge forces would find themselves isolated.  I'm pushing the Soviets back where sufficient force permits along both flanks but it is slow going.  Unless we can convince them to make a withdrawal to shorten out lines soon we may be faced with pulling back from Moscow and giving up a lot of hard earned ground.  Even if we take Moscow before the Blizzards come we need to fix the bulge problem. Otherwise Moscow could be our Stalingrad this game.




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Post #: 462
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 1:13:40 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		Soviet forces did make a withdrawal of their forces south of Kiev to shorten their lines, except for one stack that lagged behind for some reason.  We isolated them and should have no trouble mopping them up next turn.  Whoever suggested forming a line along the Dnepr gets my vote.  Pushing further east at this point is risky so we will clear as many of the Soviets still west of the Dnepr as we can in the next few turns and get ready for the bad weather.  We'll keep some forces east of the river near Kiev of course and possibly secure a couple of bridgeheads elsewhere for renewed operations next Spring.




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Post #: 463
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 1:13:55 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		elmo,

The soviet stack south-west of Leningrad has an Inf unit with a defense value of 71. Could that figure - whether it's an estimate or not - decrease and be visible after an air attack AND prior to any ground attack ?

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Post #: 464
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 1:16:35 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		The Rumanians and 11th Army continue to keep up the pressure to the far south.




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Post #: 465
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 1:20:34 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

elmo,

The soviet stack south-west of Leningrad has an Inf unit with a defense value of 71. Could that figure - whether it's an estimate or not - decrease and be visible after an air attack AND prior to any ground attack ?


All three units in that stack (1st, 28th, and 81st Inf Divs) have detection levels of 10 so we have all the information we will get. Their strength is an estimate but probably a pretty good one. Hopefully a couple of air attacks will soften them up next turn. Remind me to show the air results if I forget.

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Post #: 466
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 1:44:58 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		Someone asked about how long it takes for the AI to move and I may have guessed at 5 minutes plus or minus.  I'd say it's closer to 10 minutes.  Not sure if I was just optimistic before or if the AI does more thinking now.

Losses through turn 15:






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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 1:50:24 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		And for turn 16 weather in Zone 4 is Mud.  That includes the area from Smolensk to Moscow.  

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 3:03:36 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

Where did this info came from ? It just wouldn't make sense.


In the Q&A thread, jaw replied to one of my questions about moving factories with the following statement:
quote:

There is no relationship between the location of a factory and the output of production since everything produced goes into one big abstact pool. When you re-locate a factory you want to re-locate it to some place where it will never have to be moved again so the further from the front lines the better.

The rail transport cost is based on the size of the thing your moving not the distance. A normal unit has a maximum rail move of 100 hexes but I'm not sure that is true for factories also. I'll have to note that the next time I move one in the current game I'm testing as the Russian and get back to you.


It seems the rail transport system is all about what you're moving, not how far you're moving it.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 5:06:11 PM   
PyleDriver


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Status: offline 		Lee you will have an ugly winter with those flanks...I don't think you ate up enough Soviet units in you game either...

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 5:24:23 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		Yeah I have to figure something out quickly.

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Post #: 471
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 6:18:52 PM   
paullus99


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Status: offline 		Very nice that it does show the problems with a "full-blooded thrust" directly to Moscow. Gives a big reason for cleaning up the lines & pushing forward on a broader front (which, unfortunately has major disadvantages of its own).

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 6:25:14 PM   
Zorch

 

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Status: offline 		Time to send Von Rippentrop back to Moscow?
This is about the time when Stalin offered (via Sweden) Hitler a ceasefire in place. Hitler, of course, would have none of it.

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Post #: 473
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 6:31:28 PM   
Balou


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quote:

It seems the rail transport system is all about what you're moving, not how far you're moving it.


Well, if it has been decided to handle factory movement that way it definitly supports Sov Sir Robin(ovich) strategies in 1941. Maybe the dev team could limit the NUMBER of factories that can be evacuated per turn, otherwise there we would too much magic within rail transport mechanics.

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Post #: 474
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 6:37:21 PM   
Balou


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quote:

Time to send Von Rippentrop back to Moscow?
This is about the time when Stalin offered (via Sweden) Hitler a ceasefire in place. Hitler, of course, would have none of it.


Maybe elmo should hit the "ambassador" button

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Post #: 475
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 7:54:53 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

Well, if it has been decided to handle factory movement that way it definitly supports Sov Sir Robin(ovich) strategies in 1941. Maybe the dev team could limit the NUMBER of factories that can be evacuated per turn, otherwise there we would too much magic within rail transport mechanics.


If a factory requires, say, 10 times as many rail transport points as a Rifle division, there's a certain balance between losing factories and slowing the Axis advance, or not slowing the Axis advance to the same extent and losing less factories. It wouldn't be entirely historical, as it would have been possible for STAVKA to think: screw this, we can't defend this line, let's evacuate everything and move less men in.

I do agree that not having distance factored into rail transport costs could screw things up rather badly.

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Post #: 476
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 9:52:27 PM   
Sabre21


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Status: offline 		Yea Lee..I would love to be in the Soviet shoes right now, I see several places in your line where I would try and crack your line, and I give it a high probablity of doing so trapping most of your AGC combat power.

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Post #: 477
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/7/2010 10:51:08 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		Someone should encourage him to switch sides for a few turns.

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Post #: 478
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 3:12:40 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		LOL, Andy is seeing Warsaw in spring....Lee the flanks are going kill you. Lee is a newbe and you guys can see the game is challanging. Andy is our explot the game guy, me I would like to think I'm next... I just took Gorky and Saratov in my 42 test, the game is still needing some tweeking, but it's alot of fun...I may post some ss's...Ah maybe not...Only if theres requests...

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Post #: 479
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 4:39:07 AM   
Platypus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

LOL, Andy is seeing Warsaw in spring....Lee the flanks are going kill you. Lee is a newbe and you guys can see the game is challanging. Andy is our explot the game guy, me I would like to think I'm next... I just took Gorky and Saratov in my 42 test, the game is still needing some tweeking, but it's alot of fun...I may post some ss's...Ah maybe not...Only if theres requests...


...and speaking of requests - please accept this as my formal request for some of your AAR's too thanks PD.

On the issue of the SOV AI -- how do you re-create the pessimism and defeatism that became a self-perpuating event, increasing losses and further lowering morale during that 1941 summer -> winter period?

And then, of course, this 'crippling effect' has to be gradually withdrawn/minimized from the SOV AI, as it learns the hard lessons from the blitzkreig.

Exactly how complex is this task so that you get the correct ingame balance?

cheers

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