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Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 6:08:06 AM   
JuanG


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I remember this being brought up several times in the past, but thought this was worth making another thread for, as I have not noticed it mentioned yet. If I'm wrong, sorry!

Following the last patch and as part of my work on the next series of AltWNT scenarios, I decided to do some more testing with the PGM device, inspired by some of the things listed in the patch notes.

When I had previously tested this (around patch-1), I found that the PGM device would not work for the allies as no matter what production and stocks of it were set to, it would not be drawn and expended by aircraft carrying it.


This is no longer the case, and the device works.

Heres some screenshots and reports from a test scenario (basically Coral Sea with a PB4Y squadron from the future).



Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 25 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 2

Allied aircraft
PB4Y-2B Privateer x 32

No Japanese losses

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
xAK Tatumiya Maru, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Kamikaze Maru, Bomb hits 10, and is sunk
xAKL Noshiro Maru #2
xAK Asakaze Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Sinsei Maru

Japanese ground losses:
388 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 9 disabled
Non Combat: 8 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x PB4Y-2B Privateer launching missiles from 3000 feet (VPB-120 / South Pacific)
Naval Attack: 2 x SWOD-9 Bat
22 x PB4Y-2B Privateer launching missiles from 5000 feet (VPB-120 / South Pacific)
Naval Attack: 2 x SWOD-9 Bat
5 x PB4Y-2B Privateer launching missiles from 2000 feet (VPB-120 / South Pacific)
Naval Attack: 2 x SWOD-9 Bat


This is by a ~70 exp and NavB squadron operating from Port Moresby. The accuracy values were taken from the Ohka for now, with damage adjust to represent a 1000lbs bomb. Adjustments will be made, though the attacks on the second day were much more destructive.

If you're wondering about the low launch heights its probably a product of setting the plane type to Torpedo Bomber, to set the squadrons NavB skill to a reasonable level. I am going to run more tests with real level bombers trained in NavB.

The device pools;



Another brilliant addition to the game. Thank you.



Update;

Changed to level bomber and trained in NavB, skills/exp around 65-70.

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 46 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 19 minutes


Allied aircraft
PB4Y-2B Privateer x 6


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
xAK Tatumiya Maru, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Sinsei Maru, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
213 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)



Aircraft Attacking:
6 x PB4Y-2B Privateer launching missiles from 12000 feet (VPB-120 / South Pacific)
Naval Attack: 2 x SWOD-9 Bat


< Message edited by JuanG -- 3/7/2010 6:34:49 AM >


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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 10:35:13 AM   
chesmart


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Thanks for  the testing  JuanG will they be included in the new alternative war scenarios ?

< Message edited by che200 -- 3/7/2010 10:36:03 AM >

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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 10:37:28 AM   
chesmart


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I think they are a little bit too lethal when they are in Levelbomber mode.

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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 10:38:37 AM   
JuanG


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Yes, along with AtG rockets and any other 'toys' I can get working. I may include a later PGM for the Allies in the form of the VB-6 Felix as well. If anyone has any suggestions as to reasonable weapons systems to include, let me know.

< Message edited by JuanG -- 3/7/2010 10:39:05 AM >


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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 10:45:00 AM   
chesmart


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Regarding lethality of PGMs what do you think ? I tested air to ground rockets on aircraft from 1944 onwards and they where very destructive of airfields. 1 squadron of F6F-5 could close 1 airfield in 1 strike. What I will be doing is a HR no airfield attacks by rocket armed aircraft.

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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 10:47:08 AM   
JuanG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

Regarding lethality of PGMs what do you think ? I tested air to ground rockets on aircraft from 1944 onwards and they where very destructive of airfields. 1 squadron of F6F-5 could close 1 airfield in 1 strike. What I will be doing is a HR no airfield attacks by rocket armed aircraft.


There are several approach I will consider to fix this - one is to reduce effect of the weapons, the other is to make the devices groups of rockets, with each plane only having one device. So a F6F would have a '5in HVAR (6)' device, and so forth.

Will obviously be testing this to make sure results are acceptable.

< Message edited by JuanG -- 3/7/2010 10:58:37 AM >


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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 10:53:16 AM   
chesmart


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I think it would work, great idea. solved me another problem Juan !

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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 10:57:39 AM   
JuanG


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The idea was actually inspired by something vaned74 posted in the old Aircraft rockets thread when some of us first showed that they worked;

quote:

As far as rocket ammo - it's a strafing attack, as best I can tell the system only allows one pass so the number of mountings you install on the plane is the number of rockets you shoot - unless you want to make something like a "rocket cluster" and model that as one device - that may be the way the device is depicted now in the editor - I have no idea.


While I dont think he intended it as a 'solution' to anything and it was just general brainstorming about the model, it gave me an idea about how to prevent the issue you brought up.

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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 2:18:39 PM   
Nemo121


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Can you detail how you get PGMs to work for the Allies?

Is this due to a code change in Patch 3 or is it a workaround?

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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 2:23:20 PM   
JuanG


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Not a work around, just set it up the same way as an Ohka but with Side set to Allies, and production rate and arrival date adjusted as you wish. If you want to test it, just set the pool to a hundred or so to avoid having to wait for them to get produced.

I believe this is due to a change in Patch-3 or one of the Patch-2 hotfixes, but as I said I last tested this around the same time as I tested the AtG Rockets, just after Patch-1.

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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 2:35:40 PM   
chesmart


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It worked in patch 2 when i tried it.BTW Nemo in AE there are no hardcoded slots or items like in WITP so if an item works on 1 side it will work on the other. Thats what they told me on the support forum when i asked them about it.

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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 2:36:37 PM   
chesmart


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We can have A-Bombs for Japan now I think.

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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 3:41:53 PM   
RyanCrierie


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Really? Then this sort of makes a 1950s scenario like I was playing around with even more fun

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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 5:07:05 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG

quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

Regarding lethality of PGMs what do you think ? I tested air to ground rockets on aircraft from 1944 onwards and they where very destructive of airfields. 1 squadron of F6F-5 could close 1 airfield in 1 strike. What I will be doing is a HR no airfield attacks by rocket armed aircraft.


There are several approach I will consider to fix this - one is to reduce effect of the weapons, the other is to make the devices groups of rockets, with each plane only having one device. So a F6F would have a '5in HVAR (6)' device, and so forth.

Will obviously be testing this to make sure results are acceptable.


Probably a good idea, just be sure to bump up the effects of it to better simulate all 6 being fired as opposed to being fired seperately.

From what I can gather, Allied planes tended to carry rockets in groups of 4, 8 or 12. I'm sure there are exceptions to this of course...have you considered perhaps using 4 as the rocket number?

The next question to answer is how to model the air to air rockets used by the Axis into the game....I will have to explore that. I'm thinking treat it as an A/C cannon with an extremely low accuracy (since we can't control ammo on air to air weaopns).

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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 6:11:48 PM   
chesmart


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Yes shark the workaround you are proposing works it was used in RHS and by Nemo to simulate rockets air to surface but could also be used air to air.

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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/7/2010 8:26:44 PM   
JuanG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

From what I can gather, Allied planes tended to carry rockets in groups of 4, 8 or 12. I'm sure there are exceptions to this of course...have you considered perhaps using 4 as the rocket number?

The next question to answer is how to model the air to air rockets used by the Axis into the game....I will have to explore that. I'm thinking treat it as an A/C cannon with an extremely low accuracy (since we can't control ammo on air to air weaopns).



Well, I've heard of 4, 6 and 8 so far, but I've only gone through USN aircraft for now. Obviously device effect etc will be scaled with number as you suggest.

As to AtA rockets, I do not plan on including them initially. However, my enhanced mods may see a Japanese ground attack rocket based on the German 55mm R4M.

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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/8/2010 3:50:02 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

From what I can gather, Allied planes tended to carry rockets in groups of 4, 8 or 12. I'm sure there are exceptions to this of course...have you considered perhaps using 4 as the rocket number?

The next question to answer is how to model the air to air rockets used by the Axis into the game....I will have to explore that. I'm thinking treat it as an A/C cannon with an extremely low accuracy (since we can't control ammo on air to air weaopns).



Well, I've heard of 4, 6 and 8 so far, but I've only gone through USN aircraft for now. Obviously device effect etc will be scaled with number as you suggest.

As to AtA rockets, I do not plan on including them initially. However, my enhanced mods may see a Japanese ground attack rocket based on the German 55mm R4M.


12 3in rockets are a possibility on a couple of British airframes, though these may not be available in the time frame of your mod.


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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/8/2010 3:51:27 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

Yes shark the workaround you are proposing works it was used in RHS and by Nemo to simulate rockets air to surface but could also be used air to air.


Glad to hear it.

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RE: Allied Missiles - 3/8/2010 6:15:46 PM   
Nemo121


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It sucks as a work-around for A2A... I wouldn't bother using it.

On the other hand, there's something to be said for bodging in a Rheintochter. That's doable, I should know because I put one into a variant of WiTP EA and tested it. Expect to see this in 1946 in EA AE: Return of the Palindrome.

Well, actually, my money for EA is actually on the Schmetterling. I think it was more deployable given Japanese tech in a reasonable timeframe.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 3/8/2010 6:40:18 PM >

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