Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios?

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Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/16/2010 6:37:30 PM

parzival

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Does anyone know good scenarios simulating the last days of the Reich inside the city of Berlin or the death struggle of the German 6th Army in surrounded Stalingrad? Maybe the battle of Budapest could be an interesting "street battle" scenario too. Or is the scale of the required map too large? In this kind of scenario one hex should maybe be a couple of hundred of meters at most...

< Message edited by parzival -- 3/16/2010 8:09:40 PM >

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/16/2010 8:10:06 PM

el cid

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For Stalingrad you could check Wintergewitter 42, but it might be too large

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/16/2010 8:16:28 PM

parzival

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid

For Stalingrad you could check Wintergewitter 42, but it might be too large

I am familiar with the Wintergewitter scenario but what I mean is something much smaller. Something where one hex represents a couple of blocks (or a bit more but not much more) and 6 hour turns. So the scenario map should essentially be a city map. Interesting (and heavy) city battles during WWII were at least Berlin, Budapest, Stalingrad (perhaps also Warsaw uprising).

< Message edited by parzival -- 3/16/2010 8:19:11 PM >

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/17/2010 9:06:10 AM

Silvanski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: parzival

Does anyone know good scenarios simulating the last days of the Reich inside the city of Berlin

I'm gonna try to overhaul an oldie (was made under TOAW1),depicting the final Soviet offensive
See this thread http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2404917

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/17/2010 4:27:10 PM

parzival

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

quote:

ORIGINAL: parzival

Does anyone know good scenarios simulating the last days of the Reich inside the city of Berlin

I'm gonna try to overhaul an oldie (was made under TOAW1),depicting the final Soviet offensive
See this thread http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2404917

Berlin 1945 certainly looks nice. But Id be curious to know whether there are any real city battle scenarios.

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/17/2010 7:43:18 PM

Andriko

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I think the game dosn't handle such small scales well enough - it is not a tactical game after all, and you are left with problems like Machine Gun ranges, morter ranges, even hand grenade ranges.

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/17/2010 7:47:25 PM

parzival

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andriko

I think the game dosn't handle such small scales well enough - it is not a tactical game after all, and you are left with problems like Machine Gun ranges, morter ranges, even hand grenade ranges.

Well I know that the official minimal limit for a hex is 2,5km. But has it been tried to make scenarios where one hex in reality would be e.g. 250m?

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/17/2010 7:55:07 PM

Silvanski

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There's an Arnhem scenario scaled to 1 KM... I believe it's by Erik Nygaard

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/19/2010 9:47:40 AM

Erik2

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I have an experimental Tarawa scenario at 250m. I had to do some extra work with ranged weapons (added range to tanks and limit artillery ranges to avoid having every gun supporting every small battle on the map). But overall the scenario works along historic lines.

Erik

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/21/2010 9:22:24 PM

Andriko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: parzival

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andriko

I think the game dosn't handle such small scales well enough - it is not a tactical game after all, and you are left with problems like Machine Gun ranges, morter ranges, even hand grenade ranges.

Well I know that the official minimal limit for a hex is 2,5km. But has it been tried to make scenarios where one hex in reality would be e.g. 250m?

Well, the thing that worries me is that a WW1 era machine gun had a range of 1km or so (I beleive). That means that at 250m a hex, any unit equipt with an MG needs a range as if it were arty, which just wouldn't be right in my opinion.

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/21/2010 9:46:47 PM

parzival

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andriko

quote:

ORIGINAL: parzival

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andriko

I think the game dosn't handle such small scales well enough - it is not a tactical game after all, and you are left with problems like Machine Gun ranges, morter ranges, even hand grenade ranges.

Well I know that the official minimal limit for a hex is 2,5km. But has it been tried to make scenarios where one hex in reality would be e.g. 250m?

Well, the thing that worries me is that a WW1 era machine gun had a range of 1km or so (I beleive). That means that at 250m a hex, any unit equipt with an MG needs a range as if it were arty, which just wouldn't be right in my opinion.

But why wouldn it be right? If we added into this game a feature that ranged units could be orderd into interdiction mission, a well positioned MG unit could really make it's job in the WWI style in beating the approaching infantry down. Maybe this game needs some changes to properly model small scale battles but why couldn they be done? It would be pity ifwe werent able to model e.g. Berlin/Budapest street battles or similar situations where the map scale must be large.

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/22/2010 8:12:56 AM

wodin

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If the game could be scaled down to this level and many scenarios were released I'd buy instantly...

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/22/2010 4:30:36 PM

Curtis Lemay

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The list of changes required to make the game tactical would be huge:

1. Line-of-sight: requires elevations for each hex and terrain type, in addition to the code to figure it out. Plus some mechanism to display it.
2. Facing: Including front/side/rear armor ratings for armored equipment.
3. WEGO? Real Time? Opportunity fire & etc. Can't really have tactical using IGOUGO.
4. Probably plenty else I'm forgetting.

Basically, a whole new game.

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/22/2010 4:56:42 PM

Da_Huge_D

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The list of changes required to make the game tactical would be huge:

1. Line-of-sight: requires elevations for each hex and terrain type, in addition to the code to figure it out. Plus some mechanism to display it.
2. Facing: Including front/side/rear armor ratings for armored equipment.
3. WEGO? Real Time? Opportunity fire & etc. Can't really have tactical using IGOUGO.
4. Probably plenty else I'm forgetting.

Basically, a whole new game.

Yes. And we already have tactical-level games. Such as John Tiller's campaign series.

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/22/2010 5:58:25 PM

parzival

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The list of changes required to make the game tactical would be huge:

1. Line-of-sight: requires elevations for each hex and terrain type, in addition to the code to figure it out. Plus some mechanism to display it.
2. Facing: Including front/side/rear armor ratings for armored equipment.
3. WEGO? Real Time? Opportunity fire & etc. Can't really have tactical using IGOUGO.
4. Probably plenty else I'm forgetting.

Basically, a whole new game.

All your points are certainly valid and my idea to simulate tactical level in TOAW was maybe a bit premature. I'd like to make a couple of points about 1. and 2. however.

2.) An armoured group of let's say 5 tanks should certainly be indexed with some variable that shows into which direction it is driving when we operate at tactical level. But isnt this in some sense valid also when we speak of larger formations? How about an infantry division sitting in a strong fortified position? Fortifications very rarely are "hedgehog positions" i.e. equal from all directions. If the attack comes from backside, the division in question may even be in a more worse situation than a division that is not fortified. Even such complex strategic defense systems like e.g. Maginot line should be "faced" into some direction. And how about a german armoured division driving forwards on the steppes of Ukraine. Then a Soviet infantry corps decides to make a counterattack. In some situtations it may make a big difference whether the attack comes from flank, backside or is it a direct assault? Some of these kind of considerations are perhaps abstracted into the flanking rules but certainly not all of them.

1.) Maybe there is no exact counterpart to the "line of sight" but there are certainly lines of communication. The lines of communication go backwards and not forwards like the line of sight but when we speak of the operative level, arent the lines of communication your "line of sight"? Because it is always the higher levels in the command structure that see the big picture and hence "see where you are and where you should be going"?

It may make a big difference whether an enemy unit is sitting just opposite of u in his trenches or wheter he is having a cup of coffee at your formations HQ? TOAW very poorly models the operational shock that fast breakthrough at some point may cause to much larger part of the front than just to the breakthrough point. When enemy drives fast to your rear area and destroyes HQs, communication lines and supply depots, this can have paralyzing effect to a large part of the front. Why this kind of operative shock is not better modelled in this game (Your "sight" becomes worse cause you dont know anymore what is happening around u) ?

< Message edited by parzival -- 3/22/2010 6:09:42 PM >

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/25/2010 11:29:53 PM

Andriko

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the thing is parzival, this is an Operational game, not a tactical one, and I like it this way.

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/26/2010 2:29:27 AM

parzival

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And how would u define terms operational and tactical?

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RE: Berlin/Stalingrad scenarios? - 3/27/2010 1:58:16 AM

Andriko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: parzival

And how would u define terms operational and tactical?

You can find that out quite simply by researching a little bit of military history or war studies or some such thing. Warfare at the operational level falls between the strategic and the tactical, and to an extent incorporates bits of both, but the details of neither.

So in TOAW, I do not want to have to worry about which way an individual tank is facing, or whether my MG sqaud see their target, or consider tempreture, humidity and angle in my artillery barrages, just as I do not want to worry about the strategic implications of misinformation campaigns, political appointments or production levels.

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