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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR

 
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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/31/2010 8:50:39 PM   
wiking62


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/30/2006
From: England
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quote:

(BAR) Well the Soviets have become a real pain in the ass. They hit my flank hard agian in the approch to Rostov...


Well at least we know the AI is responding to your attacks.

This is what we all want to see, an AI that provides a challenge.

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 151
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 3/31/2010 10:13:48 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Yep it's not the same AI as three months ago. The attrition has got me wondering now. The Russians can afford it, I can't...Still I will press this fight...

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Post #: 152
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/1/2010 12:56:53 PM   
SGHunt


Posts: 873
Joined: 1/20/2010
From: Lancaster, England
Status: offline 		Going over to the defence now seems pointless to OKH - your only chance of victory must be with der blitzen, Herr von Driver!

I guess you could pull back from Rostov and concentrate everything in the centre, but I also guess this means the Rusians will do the same, and simply pour in all their reserves up there.

What chance is there of pressing to the North of the Rostov counter-attack, through the weak bigade/division and the HQ West of Voroshilovgrad and towards and to the South of the city, and threatening another pocket?  Would this cause them to pull back, do you think, even though that attack is not the 'real' Scwherpunkt?   Can even fairly strong Inf Divisions do this sort of thing without armour support?   (Assuming you haven't got a spare Pz Corps or two lying around to help? )   


Having blarted on, by the time you get this, you will probably have done the deed already!

Can't wait for the SS's of your responses to the very aggresssive AI this turn (indeed I can't wait to take it on myself).   It seems really challenging, at least at the operations level even if I'm not sure it'll be able to read your overall strategic intent?   Or do you suspect that it does read you?   [Can the advanced chess AI programmes (was it called Deep Blue?) do that, does anyone know?]

von J


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Post #: 153
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/1/2010 12:59:38 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

and, over all, your plan/idea, is worthless to the battle, you are not gaining anything, but getting some troops killed


You're saying you're not gaining anything by making a pocket? Judging by the screenshots, the Soviets don't have a lot of quality forces in 1941-1942, which is historical. If you can pocket those quality forces (Guards units, Tank/Cavalry/Rifle Corps), you will gain quite a lot. Killing units in a pocket will usually result in far less casualties than attacking them head on if the casualty reports from elmo's AAR are an indication.

If you can let the AI advance into some steppe/clear/farmland hexes without much strategic value (ergo: most of the western and southern parts of the map) and can kill units by pocketing them, I don't think that's a "worthless" thing to try. The Germans have to kill Soviet units, and pocketed units seem to die a lot faster than regular units. Besides, it's sort of a backhand blow+ method, and the backhand blow was used with a fair amount of success by both sides (the first years of the war from the Soviet perspective eventually turned into one giant nationwide backhand blow).


well, to be honest, you are twisting the statement, what I was trying to say, to from a line, get a pocket, clean the pocket, and then from the line to set up another pocket, is what I meant is worthless (now, if your moving forward and gaining a pocket each turn, each two turns, great, but, staying in place, to try and suck the AI into a Pocket is not going to be of much use, and as Jon has shown, the AI does not react that way)

last night, I was running the Typhoon battle, on turn 3, I cleaned up my pockets, got 30 Divs and 9 Armor Brigs (about 350,000 men, 350 AFV)

most of the end of the turn, I set up a new pocket, and was able to force a gap, though that gap, I drove deep, because I could get 3 VH's, if I had went for the northern pocket, I may never of gotten to those VH's

as it is, I am getting my butt kicked (those 3 VH and the ones I have taken from the SU, will start to even the score now, if I can hold them)

but, just trying to say, forming pockets and then trying to trick the AI into making a new one, will not help you in the long run (make your stats pretty though)

okay back to Jon, he is the Master at taking Moscow, let him show you the way



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Post #: 154
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/1/2010 1:15:44 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Ron where do I send the kisses and roses?...lol...The AI is not kind right now, but I will press this hand, I still think I will break the bears back...

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Post #: 155
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/1/2010 2:15:35 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Well I guess you guys are biting on the bone. This is a (DAR) During Action Report...Ist Pz spread out to close the pocket up north... Armin's Corp is about to be sprung into game. This will get ugly...Theres only so many reserves for the Soviets...




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< Message edited by PyleDriver -- 4/1/2010 2:17:35 PM >

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Post #: 156
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/1/2010 2:41:03 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Ron where do I send the kisses and roses?...lol...The AI is not kind right now, but I will press this hand, I still think I will break the bears back...


no Hassle mate :)

giving the Devil his due :)

game is getting ruff, Typhoon, I think I have killed 42 Divs, and 21 Brigs, and Mud, interdiction, reserves are kicking my butt (I should make it close, but...)

and I got the Blizzard to look forward to (in 4 or 5 turns)

< Message edited by Hard Sarge -- 4/1/2010 2:43:48 PM >

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Post #: 157
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/1/2010 3:12:49 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		well, again, not trying to steal the thunder here

but...

while not a trap as stated, I did leave 5 or so PZ Divs hanging, the AI backed off, it could "see" it may of been a trap (they were)

so, overall, I think we can honestly say, the AI is not stupid, or will fall into the same trap over and over again, really, and I think Jon will agree, the German doesn't set traps, he makes them

Jon, can you believe that Vyshny Volochek may be the key to my battle ?

(I take that, it will off set my not being able to take Moscow (if I can hold what I now have)

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Post #: 158
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/1/2010 6:57:41 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		PyleDriver: seems the AI went braindead again for a moment. There's not a single unit close to your bridgehead at the Dvina and nothing was pulled back from the line to stop you it seems.

It's a bit of a paradox to read about how capable the AI is whilst the AI as displayed in the screenshots sometimes appears to be somewhat ineffective, especially considering that you closed that pocket with 3 Panzer regiments and didn't even have to use the other Panzer division (it's in the same hex where you left it last turn).

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Post #: 159
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/1/2010 7:10:16 PM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1791
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		PyleDriver, What are those numbers on the Russian units? 10=60 and 17=93?

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Post #: 160
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/1/2010 7:14:27 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Attack Combat Value = Defense Combat Value (accounts for terrain and fort modifiers for defense)

These are rough approximations of combat ability. The actual ability in combat depends on the interactions of the specific combat types and terrain.

< Message edited by Joel Billings -- 4/1/2010 7:15:32 PM >

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Post #: 161
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/1/2010 9:22:34 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Ok guys read back some pages on this post. I "reported" to Joel and Gary the lasp of the AI. I think if it didn't have a brainfart up north it wouldn't be spanking down south...Sooo...

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Post #: 162
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/2/2010 5:00:54 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		How you use breaking down divisions is must. Where, when and why...As Joel said they can become exposed, so the hat trick as to when...




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Post #: 163
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/3/2010 5:42:09 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Boy did I take a hit attacking this pocket, 33 AFV down, so I'll let them suffer one more turn with out mail from there wives...4th Army did pop a hole, lead by the 10th Mot division. STAVKA is in shambles over this...Stalin has men lined up in question...




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Post #: 164
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/3/2010 6:29:33 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Heres a level 4 ss. When I started the AAR (look back) I said those flanks have to be taken out. Well they are...lol...Soon you will see Hoth's 4th PzA spring into action. Trust me, this is beauty...This all takes time and tempo, it doesn't happen overnight...




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Post #: 165
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/3/2010 7:17:55 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		One last thought...I'm a chess player, and a very good one...So, you have to think ahead in this game or be left behind...

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Post #: 166
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/3/2010 1:42:04 PM   
Northern Star


Posts: 1881
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline 		Jon, I was a good chess player too some years ago... then I started to play WiR and everything changed.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPV9JWWtOQ0

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Post #: 167
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/3/2010 1:53:14 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		I wonder how many wargamers are also chessplayers. I participated in some chess tournaments when I was young(er), but after winning a tournament I quit playing chess on a professional level. Now I rarely play chess, well, "regular" chess anyway.

PyleDriver, what does your vehicle pool look like, did you lose 1940/1941/1942 recon unit production in a handful of turns like the last time?

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Post #: 168
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/3/2010 5:33:09 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I just wanted you to know as an avid gamer, I read this like my morning "paper and coffee" lol
so when I get up and scroll through the important stuff ,this thread is right there ! wowow so please talk about planing and why you  are attacking at various points, all intersting stuff...

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Post #: 169
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/3/2010 9:04:42 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Boom...Told you Hoth was ready...The spring spung...This is pretty, or ugly...Damn I love this game...




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Post #: 170
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/3/2010 9:18:12 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		So heres a level 4 zoom, you guys get the picture yet. I press everywhere then break it. This will get good, stay tooned...lol...




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Post #: 171
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/3/2010 9:22:09 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Oh Btw, I haven't brought Kliest into action yet...lol...

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Post #: 172
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/3/2010 9:24:51 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		This is getting kind of silly. You're advancing, using a ~20 kilometre corridor, without a link to a railhead. It's weird that the collection of air groups at Tula doesn't really seem to be able to interdict anything in any meaningful way. The AI was also kind enough to place his mobile units at the frontline. I'm hoping this is all still the result of the AI going braindead, as this doesn't make a lot of sense.

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Post #: 173
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/3/2010 10:27:42 PM   
PyleDriver


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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Comrade I had 8 Mech units there (alot of power). I really don't wan't to say what it cost to get that breakthrough (didn't look) it was costly. Attrition is killing me right now, so take a chill pill, then buy the game and tell me your stories...

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Post #: 174
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 1:10:25 AM   
SGHunt


Posts: 873
Joined: 1/20/2010
From: Lancaster, England
Status: offline 		Link up at Tula for the next and biggest pocket?

Where is Kleist?   (Where is Grouchy?)

And down South - have the heavy guns started hammering Rostov yet?

S


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Post #: 175
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 9:35:47 AM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		Can I make a suggestion for immersion and ease of identification would it be possible that units have their number to the left or right of the Nato symbol and when they split perhaps 1/33 2/33 3/33 (the figures rotated off course so the top rests on the symbol and base rests on counters edge)

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Post #: 176
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 9:52:53 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

Link up at Tula for the next and biggest pocket?

Where is Kleist?   (Where is Grouchy?)

And down South - have the heavy guns started hammering Rostov yet?

S



Tula ? I would be heading towards Kyazan, unless the northern thrust has trouble

(but I am a sucker for Airfields, nothing like a tank running a bomber or two under it's treads)

of course, I am not the master of the pocket, I tend to be more of a bull in a china shop



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Post #: 177
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 9:53:02 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

This is getting kind of silly. You're advancing, using a ~20 kilometre corridor, without a link to a railhead. It's weird that the collection of air groups at Tula doesn't really seem to be able to interdict anything in any meaningful way. The AI was also kind enough to place his mobile units at the frontline. I'm hoping this is all still the result of the AI going braindead, as this doesn't make a lot of sense.


not trying to step in, but, look behind the lines, I am sure Jon has his fighters in the area, they will cover the breakthough, as long as he has AS over that area, the SU will be HARD pressed to get much interdiction done


plus everything else he is doing, his air is keeping the SU air busy

if the SU air had AS in the area, it would be much HARDer to gain that kind of breakthough

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Post #: 178
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 11:12:03 AM   
ComradeP

 

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Joined: 9/17/2009
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quote:

Comrade I had 8 Mech units there (alot of power). I really don't wan't to say what it cost to get that breakthrough (didn't look) it was costly. Attrition is killing me right now, so take a chill pill, then buy the game and tell me your stories...


I'll take the chill pill, I was just surprised that you managed to do something like this, especially after you trapped roughly 2 Armies worth of troops with just 3 Panzer regiments.

quote:

not trying to step in, but, look behind the lines, I am sure Jon has his fighters in the area, they will cover the breakthough, as long as he has AS over that area, the SU will be HARD pressed to get much interdiction done


plus everything else he is doing, his air is keeping the SU air busy

if the SU air had AS in the area, it would be much HARDer to gain that kind of breakthough


Looking behind the lines, I see that most of those German air groups are further removed from the German spearheads than the Soviet air groups in the area. And although quantity certainly isn't everything, there are a lot of Soviet air groups in the area and only a limited number of German air groups. Even though the quality of Soviet air groups is probably still fairly minimal, quantity should be able to compensate for that to a degree.

To say the AI needs a lesson or two on flank security would be an understatement.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 179
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 11:40:50 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		with out seeing what is on the fields, it is HARD to tell how much, how many planes are in the area

the fighters do have range, they don't need to be in the same hex, to fly

also, remember, the idea of a bulge, it gives you a spring board into the enemy flanks, but it also opens up your flanks, and once the weather clears, a single defence line is going to be in trouble

when the game comes out, challenge Jon to a game, show him the errors of his ways



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Post #: 180
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