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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ?

 
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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/10/2010 1:05:36 PM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		"I find your response very patronizing to AI players.It has nothing to do with isolation.It has to do with time constraints and personal preference.

When someone pays good money for a game he should not be told the manner he enjoys playing it is a waste of time and to find a human player."


Wild,

I will not engage you in a flame war. Please reread my post: there was nothing derogatory, demeaning or otherwise negative written about how you or anyone else wishes to play this or any other game; I never insinuated that you would be wasting your time playing the AI. Mine were generic comments about what one might expect from the AI of this or any other commercial wargames and how the game developers might direct their energies.

Based upon the tester's responses I may be pleasantly surprised; I do have an open mind.

Marquo

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Post #: 61
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/10/2010 1:32:40 PM   
mmarquo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I find it typical of how self centered people are these days to only think of themselves.

This game should have as good an AI as they possibly can build...

So what if some of you will PBEM and not the AI...many here will play the AI and not PBEM....so we will all have to wait to get a chance to play it.

Live at let live...I really don't think the game will suffer in any respect and will be a great product for you anti AI people aswell as those who want an AI.


Wodin,

Please refrain from reducing my general comments to your personal level; my generic comments about what to expect from the AI were not intended to create so much personal angst and do not merit such a personal vitriolic response. I do not judge you or how you wish to play; as you so eloquently remarked, "Live and let live."

Your reflection about "anti AI people" intruiged me: personally, I am not anti AI. My sentiments are the result of years of playing commercial wargames: none of these products have anything but the most rudimentary AI: this is not to impugne the developers but the simple reality of what one can do with programming tools, budgetary restraints and time. Most every game has multiple bugs which surface after release and the consumer is at the mercy of how dedicated the publisher is to supporting the product: some companies do this better than others. My personal preference is to by a bug free game rather than one with a "cheating AI." Of course bug free with a sophisitcated AI would be better but decades of experience has created a realistic skepticism about the AI.

Enjoy the games,

Marquo

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Post #: 62
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/10/2010 4:11:47 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Marquo, I'm having a very tough time with the AI now. I'm a Jocky a very good jocky. My job is to run this horse so we can get the AI in order. I've been doing it on this game just short of 2 years. We have others that are doing that also... We have those that are bug collectors, data collectors, and research collectors, then we have Gary and Joel at the top....So "rudimentary AI", as I said before, after you get this game tell me your stories...Most companies would dump this on the market now it's that good, but we want to make it even better and clean it up further...

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/10/2010 6:16:23 PM   
mmarquo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Marquo, I'm having a very tough time with the AI now. I'm a Jocky a very good jocky. My job is to run this horse so we can get the AI in order.



Can you be more specific: is the AI tactically proficient, good at attacking at good odds, strategically proficient - protects VPs, other? Why do you find it challenging? I am very interested in your observations
Marquo

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Post #: 64
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/10/2010 7:33:05 PM   
PyleDriver


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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Marquo, I've started back on my 42 AAR posts, I refer you to them...

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/11/2010 3:20:49 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Marquo

Strange I hadn't really read you post...its was Wouger54 or something that i took umbridge with....wagging a finger because the developers make an AI....condesending aswell....

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/11/2010 8:16:05 PM   
goranw

 

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From: Uppsala,Sweden
Status: offline 		Hi!
Regarding the discussion about the necessity of a good AI.
(Meaningful playing against the AI or only play against a human.)
The AI contributes to and tests the historical flow by testing its patterns.
The patterns are dependant on historical research regarding the map,
forces,strengths, movement way-points and the time element
The more the AI succedes in doing so, the more it is a confirmation that also
PBEM play will be interesting and rewarding.

GoranW

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Post #: 67
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/11/2010 10:33:40 PM   
mmarquo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: goranw
The AI contributes to and tests the historical flow by testing its patterns.
The patterns are dependant on historical research regarding the map,
forces,strengths, movement way-points and the time element
The more the AI succedes in doing so, the more it is a confirmation that also
PBEM play will be interesting and rewarding.


Goranw,

It is perfectly plausible to have a great game with great mechanics and phenomenal PBEM potential with absolutely no AI and vice versa. The problem with your hypothesis is that that, (1) the AI can be invested with cheats that do not reflect logic but merely a handicap, (2) there is absolutely no guarantee that a human will ever do what the AI is scripted to do so success or fun in a PBEM game has no bearing on how well the AI cheats the human opponent, (3) with all due respect I do not beleive that you can scientifically draw the conclusion you advanced that AI prowess is somehow linked to fun and rewarding PBEM play. The rewards of PBEM play are basd on game mechanics, fair VP goals, no bugs and most of all: the relative abilities of the human opponents something the AI will never emulate, ever because the AI can not think, learn from experience, take chances not scripted in the program and further can't be unnerved, can't be rattled and can't whine and moan when it's ass is being pushed back to Berlin.

Marquo

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/11/2010 11:20:55 PM   
Joel Billings


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From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		There is room for both PBEM and AI play in games, and we propose to provide both. For games of the length of War in the East, I think it would be much harder to test parts of the game if no AI was available as the physical time it would take to get far into a game with PBEM games only to test certain game systems (like production) over time would be prohibitive. So we see having an AI as good for both the AI customers (who we expect are between 2/3 and 90% of the customers), and the PBEM players because it ends up with a better game overall. One can argue the merits of focusing on either AI or PBEM play, but we're going to continue to provide both.

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/11/2010 11:28:51 PM   
knilli

 

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Status: offline 		@Joel & Team :

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 8:35:30 AM   
Wild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

There is room for both PBEM and AI play in games, and we propose to provide both. For games of the length of War in the East, I think it would be much harder to test parts of the game if no AI was available as the physical time it would take to get far into a game with PBEM games only to test certain game systems (like production) over time would be prohibitive. So we see having an AI as good for both the AI customers (who we expect are between 2/3 and 90% of the customers), and the PBEM players because it ends up with a better game overall. One can argue the merits of focusing on either AI or PBEM play, but we're going to continue to provide both.


Thank you Joel. I really appreciate 2by3's dedication to making the best wargames possible.

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 9:15:35 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		A big thankyou from me aswell....if it didn't come with an AI I would not buy and it looks like I'd have missed out on one hell of a game.

So thanks

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 1:12:33 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		not really wanting to do a AAR type, and don't want to keep jumping into other's post, so since we talking/asking about AI, thought I would post my end turn here, show what I did, and then lets see what the AI does to respond

?

Turn 7 of Barbarossa, (July 31st)

the Fins have clear out and are on the border of the Guad (Lenin type)

no attack line kinds of hurts here

AGN is pushing, lots of Russian troops, but they need to fix the line, I kind of broke it up some






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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 1:14:50 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		just in case, most of my reinforcements have been being sent to AGN

the bottom half of AGN, Vicki Lucky is the dividing line between the two Army Groups

that line is broken




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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 1:18:19 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		to the south of Vicky is a simi strong flank, but...

got a pocket around the City of Smolsk

and a baby pocket to the side, wasn't really part of the plan, but make the Russian work to save some troops (not much work, but it takes away from things it needs to do

having to wait on my supply line, my Armor is just spinning it's wheels




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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 1:20:58 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		just in case, all of the MP's my armor is showing, is from the HQ's not the Armor :(

just behind the Marsh, this may be the strongest part of the Russian line right now

(unless something fancy happens, the Armor will be turning north, not south from here)




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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 1:23:16 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		now it gets interesting

little pockets, but, HARD to get to, if you get to them, those troops will be trapped, if you back off, you going to lose some good troops ?

plus, you got the Kiev Riverline to worry about, I am too close to it, to not defend it, I get across that line, with a easy bridgehead, it is going to hurt down the road

I think he is sitting on the Horns




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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 1:27:28 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		if he tries to break in, that Hun Cav is the key, just wasn't enough fuel/supplies to get a solid pocket

south to Odessa

line is broke, but easy to fix, but how many troops can he move and keep his line in force

a lot of HARD choices need to be made, relieve the troops, back off, shift troops from the north, while Lenin is under pressuse

nothing another million men, or some mud wouldn't correct !




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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 1:33:44 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		oh just in case, the Russian lost 29 Divs that week, which set up, what you see here

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 2:30:08 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		not shabby if you ask me

in the north, it did what it could, saved some troops and tried to reform the line




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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 2:31:36 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		did good here, Vicki lucky was wide open, I should break the line again, if I can reach it, but that is part of the delay tactic




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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 2:34:36 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		all this shifting is hurting, he can't dig in like he wants, but, that is why I keep pushing

Smolensk will fall, and lose some troops, but, could of been better

getting my Inf up close now, they can do some of the work




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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 2:35:50 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		that River and the Marsh are a totally pain, so I happy here, my Inf is close, it can start driving




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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 2:37:27 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		ahhhhh, had hopes for this area, he did good, freed the big pocket, got back across the river

I don't think he will save them the 2nd time




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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 2:40:20 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		down to Odessa, his line is just too long, but he cleaned up and saved most of it

so, what do you think ?

the AI can defend itself

the line is pretty brittle as of right now and I am starting to run out of time




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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/12/2010 2:42:00 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		here is where it pushed one of my units out of the way, but wasn't enough to save the rest of the trapped troops




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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/13/2010 4:16:36 AM   
Captain B


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From: Knoxville, Tennessee
Status: offline 		HArd Sarge, As my good friend Homer Simpson once said, Praise Jeebes! This shows that the AI will be good enough to keep you guessing and force you to make some hard decisions. As I told Pyle Driver in the other post, can you say "Good Morning HAL". I can't tell you how refreshing it is to see an AI that will react to your attacks, reform lines, counterattack and keep you guessing.

I occassionally use the two player hot-seat to play a "solitaire" version of a war game. looks like that won't be an issue.

Any idea what happens if you went back and retested the same turn...does it act the same way and therefore get predictable? My guess is that the smart guys (programmers) won't allow that to happen and that this thing will blow the socks off of any other AI.

It is no easy trick to get the AI to do what you want it to do. Once wrote an AI script for Fredricksburg that produced 12,500 Union. Pretty dang close to the real numbers from December of 1862.

Keep it up and thanks for the show...thoroughly enjoyable.

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/13/2010 12:43:39 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I do know, if you set an attack, save the game, play out the attack, and then restart and do it again, the results will not be the same, some may be "easy" wins, others the enemy will hold, or get reinforcements

you could say, set a Inf Div to attack a Rifle Div, get a hold result, so reload, and then add a support unit to your Inf Div, the AI may send a reserve unit to the fight

so, yes, do the same thing, you may not get the same results, replay the turn, will not give you the same results

if the AI gets the chance to dig in, and to set up there reserves, it can be a real pain, to try and crack the line, i think most of the screen shots we are seeing, are where we got the AI moving, reacting to what we are doing, so looks much easier then it can really be

I hit the flank, just under Vicki Lucky, I have not seen so many holds in a long time, if that line can stand in place for the next turn, it is really going to be HARD to crack, but, I am putting pressure all along the line, so very HARD for the AI to just dig in and sit in place

REALLY, what we can show with Screen shots is how the game changes, you going to be doing hasty attacks and over runs, and slaughtering the airfields, by turn 3 or so, a lot of the hasty attacks are going to fail and you going to have to go to the set piece, which will slow you down, air to air, the LW still has the major edge, but the slaughter on the fields is gone, over and over again, you have to change what you are doing, your tactic's need to keep changing

and you may not think so, but you are under time and pressure, you are running out of time, the Blizzard is going to hurt, and combat in 42 is not the same as in 41

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/13/2010 12:47:38 PM   
KarlXII


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

A big thankyou from me aswell....if it didn't come with an AI I would not buy and it looks like I'd have missed out on one hell of a game.

So thanks


I totally agree. What is this discussion from players about not putting resources to build a competent A.I. Everyone KNOWS it will not be perfect but everyone HOPES it will at least be better than in previous incarnations. As has already been stated the majority will play mainly play against the A.I.

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/13/2010 1:54:56 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		I play both PBEM and the AI. The reason I want a good AI is, with the AI I don't have to wait days for a return move to start my next turn. Its that simple...

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