ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases

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ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/26/2010 7:15:55 PM

lostsm

Posts: 170
Joined: 7/10/2009
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anyone else find it ridiculous that when any empire can colonize these race only worlds, they can quickly grab up nearly everything? you can plop down a colony on a ice/ocean/volcanic world in a resource rich system, and then every base there becomes disputed. this sours relations and leads to trade disputes/wars.. which are good things although not when it happens this way i feel

i've been playing with these races off lately, even then there is the odd chance that an indy colony exists that can give an empire or myself that ability. i think it's a really overpowered ability there is just such a huge abundance of these worlds as opposed to continental/marsh/desert

of course there is the population penalty to these worlds, it still doesn't mitigate the claim to all the resources. for a player, it's not so much of a problem: all you have to do if you don't have access to the race is usually offer to buy the colony or just conquer it, but AI vs AI this isn't really happening.

and once you have the race, it's just a matter of time to get out of the red and spam colonies everywhere while the other empires can't do anything about it short of declaring war and conquering

maybe these abilities should be given out via tech to every race, change the negative diplomacy score, or even change the rules behind who and how can have the right claim to a resource

Post #: 1

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/26/2010 11:41:30 PM

Joram

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
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I don't find the race specific abilities ridiculous at all. But I think your point is more towards the disputed systems and agree that that should be toned down significantly. The AI has to know that it's a very aggressive move and I don't think it does.

(in reply to lostsm)

Post #: 2

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/27/2010 12:14:09 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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its not an ability, its a population.
When you build a colony for such a planet you will notice it is carrying ONLY members of races that can colonize said planets. So if you have a race that can colonize water planets (conquered or annexed into empire or whatever), then colonizing a water planet will never be your regular race... it isn't a tech, its a species ability.

I think those are handled very well... As for colonizing in other empire's space... that has been significantly toned down in 1.04 beta...

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I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Joram)

Post #: 3

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/27/2010 8:04:51 AM

sbach2o

Posts: 378
Joined: 3/26/2010
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It took me a while to find that in Galactopedia: But the abundance of ice/ocean/volcanic planets is a bit balanced by the fact that they are really poor in that they have severe restrictions regarding the population they can support (about 15%, 20%, 8% compared to continental planets respectively, IIRC). Many volcanic planets hit their population cap at a few hundred million inhabitants. I'd still prefer it, if the restrictions weren't as harsh and these planets less common. (Btw: I am still playing 1.0.3 - there were some mentions of rebalancing the frequency of the different planet types).

When it comes to disputed systems, this is a completely different can of worms. You cannot really attribute this to the abundance of those planets. It is a failing of the AI to create those disputes blindly and then get annoyed over them. I call it a design flaw, but one could also call it a feature. There was also some mention about rebalancing this in 1.0.4 or some of the future patches.

I am even mistrusting the AI's capacity of recognizing system ownership at all. I had an incidence where an AI empire had sent a small fleet to a system where I had four planets colonized. Most with still low population and no starbases or mining stations yet, but a couple where in early stages of construction. I demanded that the warships leave, and the AI failed to acknowledge having any warships in my systems at all. Now, this could have been a clever ploy, a case of purposefully being dense, but I doubt the AI is capable of something like this. In the end I smashed the warships and it came to war. Serves the bastards right.

(in reply to lostsm)

Post #: 4

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/27/2010 8:48:23 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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I haven't really had any issues with the AI colonizing in my space (And then get huffy about it) in 1.04...
well there is the rare case where both of us order a colonizer to colonize a different planet in the same system at about the same time, resulting in a disputed territory. But its rather rare.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to sbach2o)

Post #: 5

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/27/2010 12:51:30 PM

lostsm

Posts: 170
Joined: 7/10/2009
Status: offline

this isn't about the AI getting into my personal space and me being upset. when i wrote I play with these races off, i mean i set up my games so only continental/marsh/desert races play (with the odd chances that there's an independent). i like it that way, i find it increases the value of spaceports and mines and adds a lot of strategic locations on the galaxy map

for me the issue is more about observing how the AI deals with each other. having the ability to lay claim to an entire system just doesn't seem right to me. why bother with resource gathering asides from the basics and instead go for the right races and gobble up all the territory while the opponent doesn't even have that ability. it would be different if it can be researched but it isn't. either an empire has a planet with a majority icerat/dinos/reptile/yellowbug/fishies or else territorial wise they will get run over

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 6

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/27/2010 1:08:02 PM

Joram

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
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Actually it can be researched to a large extent. But to your other point, the AI needs (though I don't think does) to treat mining stations as valid claims to a system. If the AI doesn't choose to mine there currently though, then it probably just doesn't think it needs the resource yet.

(in reply to lostsm)

Post #: 7

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/27/2010 10:40:02 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsm

this isn't about the AI getting into my personal space and me being upset. when i wrote I play with these races off, i mean i set up my games so only continental/marsh/desert races play (with the odd chances that there's an independent). i like it that way, i find it increases the value of spaceports and mines and adds a lot of strategic locations on the galaxy map

for me the issue is more about observing how the AI deals with each other. having the ability to lay claim to an entire system just doesn't seem right to me. why bother with resource gathering asides from the basics and instead go for the right races and gobble up all the territory while the opponent doesn't even have that ability. it would be different if it can be researched but it isn't. either an empire has a planet with a majority icerat/dinos/reptile/yellowbug/fishies or else territorial wise they will get run over

research takes time, research allows you to colonize marshy and desert planets but it takes too long... gaining another race? thats easy as pie... conquer one planet and you have that race.
One of my highest priorities in an early game is to introduce races with special planet colonization ability to my empire.
The AI doesn't seem to have it as his highest priority, but he DOES do it.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to lostsm)

Post #: 8

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/27/2010 11:36:56 PM

DarkWraith

Posts: 23
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline

quote:

this isn't about the AI getting into my personal space and me being upset. when i wrote I play with these races off, i mean i set up my games so only continental/marsh/desert races play (with the odd chances that there's an independent). i like it that way, i find it increases the value of spaceports and mines and adds a lot of strategic locations on the galaxy map

I've been playing with a quick mod I threw together that gives all races the same colonization class. This takes care of problems like the one you have where there's some random independent colony or ship in the galaxy that gives someone access to the rest of the planets. I've been liking this modification quite a bit. It seems to help the AI maintain a more even footing with the player, and games get a bit more mangeable and better paced.

< Message edited by DarkWraith -- 4/28/2010 12:45:55 AM >

(in reply to lostsm)

Post #: 9

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/27/2010 11:49:33 PM

JosEPhII

Posts: 173
Joined: 1/17/2010
From: Cornfields of Western IL. USA
Status: offline

DarkWraith,

Care to share?

JosEPh

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Post #: 10

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/28/2010 1:42:26 AM

DarkWraith

Posts: 23
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline

It's a really simple modifcation, so I'm hesitant to share it, but alright. Just put the attached file in ...\Distant Worlds\Customization\AllContinental

You'll have to create the last folder in that path, but you can name it whatever you want. You can then select that profile from in game.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by DarkWraith -- 4/28/2010 1:44:06 AM >

(in reply to JosEPhII)

Post #: 11

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/28/2010 1:55:51 AM

jscott991

Posts: 530
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline

The AI really needs to colonize within other races systems much less.

It makes for a ridiculous game.

This is really the bane of all 4X games. I'm just surprised DW claimed to have toned this down in 1.04.

(in reply to DarkWraith)

Post #: 12

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/28/2010 2:56:42 AM

Munchies

Posts: 43
Joined: 4/21/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

The AI really needs to colonize within other races systems much less.

It makes for a ridiculous game.

This is really the bane of all 4X games. I'm just surprised DW claimed to have toned this down in 1.04.

It seems toned down to me.. a lot in fact.

Before 1.04 I would always have other empires colonizing in my systems (volcanic planet for example)
Now, the last few games I have played I have had 0 attempts to colonize within my claimed systems and there have been opportunities.
One empire is now trapped on the outer edge, with one system, because he did not want to damage relations and colonize within my borders to expand.

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 13

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/28/2010 3:47:21 AM

DarkWraith

Posts: 23
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline

My experiences have been the same as Munchies. The only time I think another empire attempted to colonize one of my systems since the 1.04 patches, our relations were dismal and we were both heading towards a war anyways. It makes sense in that case that they wouldn't respect my borders.

(in reply to Munchies)

Post #: 14

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/28/2010 11:11:08 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Munchies

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

The AI really needs to colonize within other races systems much less.

It makes for a ridiculous game.

This is really the bane of all 4X games. I'm just surprised DW claimed to have toned this down in 1.04.

It seems toned down to me.. a lot in fact.

Before 1.04 I would always have other empires colonizing in my systems (volcanic planet for example)
Now, the last few games I have played I have had 0 attempts to colonize within my claimed systems and there have been opportunities.
One empire is now trapped on the outer edge, with one system, because he did not want to damage relations and colonize within my borders to expand.

agreed, this seems to have been fixed in 1.04
Also, you are going to have more trouble colonizing in other's systems, as they don't even show up on the colonization planner screen.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Munchies)

Post #: 15

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/28/2010 2:16:07 PM

HsojVvad

Posts: 1036
Joined: 3/24/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Munchies

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

The AI really needs to colonize within other races systems much less.

It makes for a ridiculous game.

This is really the bane of all 4X games. I'm just surprised DW claimed to have toned this down in 1.04.

It seems toned down to me.. a lot in fact.

Before 1.04 I would always have other empires colonizing in my systems (volcanic planet for example)
Now, the last few games I have played I have had 0 attempts to colonize within my claimed systems and there have been opportunities.
One empire is now trapped on the outer edge, with one system, because he did not want to damage relations and colonize within my borders to expand.

An idea came to me from reading this. If in fact this has been fixed whe should have a new option in diplomacy now having a pact where you can coloinze in someone else's system or asking them if it's ok to do so, without taking a hit. Maybe even paying for the option of doing so.

(in reply to Munchies)

Post #: 16

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/28/2010 7:48:01 PM

DarkWraith

Posts: 23
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir
Also, you are going to have more trouble colonizing in other's systems, as they don't even show up on the colonization planner screen.

There's an option like "allow colonization in other empires' systems" or similar that I think controls that. You can flip it on if you want to be able to send colony ships there from the expansion planning screen.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 17

RE: ice/volcanic/ocean and disputed bases - 4/29/2010 11:27:27 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkWraith

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir
Also, you are going to have more trouble colonizing in other's systems, as they don't even show up on the colonization planner screen.

There's an option like "allow colonization in other empires' systems" or similar that I think controls that. You can flip it on if you want to be able to send colony ships there from the expansion planning screen.

i noticed. the option was always there, but now it actually hides their colonies from the planner, before it was just for the AI. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to DarkWraith)

Post #: 18