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RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons

 
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RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 7:13:55 PM   
Bloodly

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/14/2010
Status: offline 		So, what, you mean, turn the rest of the game I haven't already set to auto to auto as well? Wouldn't that mean I am NO LONGER PLAYING?

Is a 'watch game' necessarily a bad thing, though? I have fond memories of Rise of Nations and Rise of Legends, where a similar setup was possible-CPU against itself, but you could still act and build and change things. In many ways the CPU was far faster in some respects, but your input could make things better in regards to efficiency buildings, researching, placing of defences, and so on. It was more interesting than actually playing the game.

A 'watch game' isn't something to be avoided, and hell, half the sale point is you can go as far as that and still work effectively whilst you try and do other things.

There's an issue of trust and effectiveness. We don't trust the A.I to manage itself-mostly because it's proven to have issues with just about everything outside the norm.

(in reply to Munchies)
Post #: 31
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 7:33:38 PM   
Fishman

 

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline 		It is more interesting to watch when I had some input in the process I am watching, as opposed to it being non-interventionist. For instance, watching the awesome bot you just made tearing other players apart.

(in reply to Bloodly)
Post #: 32
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/3/2010 8:54:16 PM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wicky

Well, don't get your feet off too much of the ground. If the super-weapon death ray kills the enemy in one shot, then all your calculations about DPS, damage efficiency per energy (and thus space) become totally useless!

For example the world destroyer has a damage potential of 8000 in one shot, however it can fire only every 30 seconds, that means 266 DPS.
Now your super-designed battleship with 500 DPS comes in and it is killed in one shot?


I compared death ray and devastator pulse, neither of them can one shot anything of worth.
And both are buildable...

the world annihilator you can NOT build in your own ship designs... and it actually has the capacity to one shot a FEW things with its mega lasers... still, even AI designed capital ships and star bases have enough shields to take a direct blast from the world annihilator megalaser.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

It is more interesting to watch when I had some input in the process I am watching, as opposed to it being non-interventionist. For instance, watching the awesome bot you just made tearing other players apart.


then design your own escorts... I did. they are cute little things and are actually effective.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Wicky)
Post #: 33
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/4/2010 12:06:17 AM   
Sigh

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/12/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Once 1.0.4 is complete, we'll take another look at weapon balance in 1.0.5.

if the next patch actually allowed us to mod values you realize that you guys wouldn't have to work on patches to address balance issues anymore


What an extremely terrible post. This is why modding DESTROYS games from the get go. Great attitude. Make the players develop the game

(in reply to lostsm)
Post #: 34
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/4/2010 1:47:52 AM   
Fishman

 

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline 		Modding doesn't destroy games. There is one game I am involved in ONLY to mod, and if there was no modding, I would not play it, because it is that bad out of the box.

(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 35
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/4/2010 1:57:50 AM   
HsojVvad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Modding doesn't destroy games. There is one game I am involved in ONLY to mod, and if there was no modding, I would not play it, because it is that bad out of the box.

Would that game be MOO III by any chance?

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 36
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/4/2010 3:32:28 AM   
Fishman

 

Posts: 795
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Status: offline 		No. :P It is very unlikely that the game has any relevance to anyone here.

(in reply to HsojVvad)
Post #: 37
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/4/2010 7:15:19 AM   
lostsm

 

Posts: 170
Joined: 7/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sigh


quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Once 1.0.4 is complete, we'll take another look at weapon balance in 1.0.5.

if the next patch actually allowed us to mod values you realize that you guys wouldn't have to work on patches to address balance issues anymore


What an extremely terrible post. This is why modding DESTROYS games from the get go. Great attitude. Make the players develop the game

well this game isn't destroyed from the get go. it's already very fun and addictive. so it wouldn't be players developing anything, it would be the community enhancing the game and this is always a good thing

(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 38
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/4/2010 8:16:25 AM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Modding doesn't destroy games. There is one game I am involved in ONLY to mod, and if there was no modding, I would not play it, because it is that bad out of the box.


reliance on player developed content is not nodding, its some weird theoretical BS that produces sub par results...
Modding is when you create professional grade content and an excellent game, but also ALLOW people to leverage your engine to creature their own custom stuff.

A good example of a mod would be counterstrike.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Strike#Development

Anyways, its impossible for this game to have a case of reliance on user developed content, because it is already a full blown game, fully developed by professionals. Those experimental games that rely on user content come more as a blank canvas by design, from the beginning

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/4/2010 8:17:12 AM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 39
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/4/2010 11:42:51 AM   
Fishman

 

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Status: offline 		I'll take reliance on user-developed content over a game that is broken and unfixable, though. It's good if it works out of the box, but increasingly, this is becoming something you cannot count on, and I'll take "can be made to work" vs. "broken forever".

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 40
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/4/2010 11:53:09 AM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

I'll take reliance on user-developed content over a game that is broken and unfixable, though. It's good if it works out of the box, but increasingly, this is becoming something you cannot count on, and I'll take "can be made to work" vs. "broken forever".


Certainly I agree with you there... I am just saying that developers should strive to make a complete game that is good and finished... AND allow modding when plausible. rather then making a "game" which is a barren custom content creation app.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 41
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/4/2010 11:58:48 AM   
Fishman

 

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline 		I dunno. People will buy a barren custom content creation app. It has a market, and no one will complain if you never attempt to sell it as anything but.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

then design your own escorts... I did. they are cute little things and are actually effective.
Yeah, that would be a bad idea. I did this. Baaad mistake. Don't design escorts. Don't let the AI design them. Otherwise, your tech becomes the standard for pirates everywhere, and you set yourself up on a losing arms race against an opponent who isn't actually paying for his arms.

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 42
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/4/2010 1:05:57 PM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

I dunno. People will buy a barren custom content creation app. It has a market, and no one will complain if you never attempt to sell it as anything but.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

then design your own escorts... I did. they are cute little things and are actually effective.
Yeah, that would be a bad idea. I did this. Baaad mistake. Don't design escorts. Don't let the AI design them. Otherwise, your tech becomes the standard for pirates everywhere, and you set yourself up on a losing arms race against an opponent who isn't actually paying for his arms.


I disable pirates... I don't like their current implementation... besides which, they are too easy for me to manipulate for great benefits to me and great detriment of my enemies...

having a dubious reputation actually MEANS something now when I don't have convenient pirate bases to destroy. (And lets not start on the "pay for secrets", "pay for protection", "pay to attack others" etc)

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 43
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/4/2010 1:22:45 PM   
Rustyallan

 

Posts: 193
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

No. :P It is very unlikely that the game has any relevance to anyone here.


You'd be wrong on that. I started playing DW because I needed something more modern to take care of my empire-building fix. While I prefer MOO to MOO3 for many reasons, MOO3 had great macro-management potential. If only it worked... Some of the larger mods help a lot and make it playable. I still fire up and play a game once in a while, but wanted something more modern. DW is certainly doing a good job of that.


(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 44
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/4/2010 5:25:25 PM   
Fishman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rustyallan

You'd be wrong on that. I started playing DW because I needed something more modern to take care of my empire-building fix. While I prefer MOO to MOO3 for many reasons, MOO3 had great macro-management potential.
I think you misunderstood me. I meant "No, the game I refer to is not MOO3, and would not be of interest to anyone here". It is not a 4X or empire builder of any kind.

(in reply to Rustyallan)
Post #: 45
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/4/2010 6:32:41 PM   
JonathanStrange


Posts: 114
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		A race-spedific weapon may be less efficient but culturally obligatory. Perhaps some species may even be able to employ them more effectively or efficiently then other species; either vs a species affinity for building them smaller or more cheaply or simply aiming them better. I don't know, but I do like the idea that not every species is going to be fielding the same weapon set. Some species may have or be given some other non-military bonus as a tradeoff for remaining true to its species techs.

_____________________________

The opinions expressed by JonathanStrange are solely those of JonathanStrange and do not reflect the opinions of Matrix Games, the forum members of Matrix Games, the forum moderators, or JonathanStrange.

(in reply to Munchies)
Post #: 46
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/5/2010 2:16:04 AM   
Rustyallan

 

Posts: 193
Joined: 4/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

I think you misunderstood me. I meant "No, the game I refer to is not MOO3, and would not be of interest to anyone here". It is not a 4X or empire builder of any kind.


Yep, I misunderstood. Thanks for the clarification.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 47
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/5/2010 3:35:35 AM   
Fishman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonathanStrange

A race-spedific weapon may be less efficient but culturally obligatory.
All instances of cultural bias in the real world have failed to sustain an obsolete weapons platform for very long. Eventually everyone caves to reality. In any case, creating an AI that is crippled by incurable cultural bias that the player will disregard is not really a good plan.

(in reply to JonathanStrange)
Post #: 48
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/5/2010 7:15:26 AM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: JonathanStrange

A race-spedific weapon may be less efficient but culturally obligatory.
All instances of cultural bias in the real world have failed to sustain an obsolete weapons platform for very long. Eventually everyone caves to reality. In any case, creating an AI that is crippled by incurable cultural bias that the player will disregard is not really a good plan.


effectively this already happens... the shaktur firestorm is an inferior weapon... the shaktur are a cakewalk thanks to it.
The megatron Z4 is an inferior shield, the cat-rat samurais are a cakewalk thanks to it.

I like to think of it as them having had that racial bias... before their first few actual battles. There is no need to further cripple the AI with such behaviour

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 49
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/5/2010 3:22:00 PM   
Munchies

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 4/21/2010
Status: offline 		All of the races are a cakewalk, remember?

If they implement some form of design limitations of the different ship types, then all they would need to do is teach the AI on how to design their ships.
Those shaktur firestorms might not be so shabby when you can no longer pile on 30 engines to outrun everything. And if you do add tons of them, then you are skimping on firepower or shields/armor.

And besides they have stated a weapon balance is on the table.

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 50
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/5/2010 3:49:05 PM   
Fishman

 

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline 		But piling 30 engines to outrun everything is what is NECESSARY to make those Shaktur Firestorms WORK! If you CAN'T pile on engines to outrun everything, then short-range weapons are completely and unequivocably worthless since your enemies will always be exactly as fast as you and no more, which makes range even more dominating than before!

Although it is also the case that the Shaktur Firestorm is simply misplaced on the tech tree. The Boskara aren't weak because they have Shaktur firestorm, they're weak because the design AI doesn't understand that Shaktur Firestorm is a low-to-midtech weapon and not the best weapon in the torpedo branch. Anyone who gets Shaktur Firestorms by research is similarly affected. Early on in the game, Shakturs are a HUGE advantage because they are EASILY superior to any other weapon, and STILL outrange blasters. Meaning Shakturs can SHRED an enemy starbase with absolutely no fear of retaliation. Later on in the game, not so much, but then, the point of the racial supertech is the advantage it gives you early.

< Message edited by Fishman -- 5/5/2010 3:51:18 PM >

(in reply to Munchies)
Post #: 51
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/5/2010 3:57:11 PM   
Rustyallan

 

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quote:

Although it is also the case that the Shaktur Firestorm is simply misplaced on the tech tree.


That seems to be the case with many of the racial advantage components from what we've seen of the numbers run. Perhaps they should all be moved to a somewhat earlier point in the tech tree. I don't think the racial components should be the end-game item across the board as there should be room to improve.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 52
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/5/2010 4:24:40 PM   
Fishman

 

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Status: offline 		Well, except the Dhayut hyperdrive, anyway. That really is the best drive in the game. Of course, to make up for it, they are the absolute crappiest RACE in the game, possessing absolutely no meaningful racial bonus and the worst reproduction rate in the game by a long shot.

(in reply to Rustyallan)
Post #: 53
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/5/2010 5:26:57 PM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Munchies

All of the races are a cakewalk, remember?

If they implement some form of design limitations of the different ship types, then all they would need to do is teach the AI on how to design their ships.
Those shaktur firestorms might not be so shabby when you can no longer pile on 30 engines to outrun everything. And if you do add tons of them, then you are skimping on firepower or shields/armor.

And besides they have stated a weapon balance is on the table.


the shaktur firestorm missiles are still worthless...
1. as mentioned, if they can't outrun you, then you can't catch up to them.
2. High damage loss
3. their DPS is worse then other torpedoes...

Lets list torpedoes from "worst" to best in the game:

DPS:
Epsilon Torpedo KTX 3000: 11.1 DPS
Velocity Shard: 11.8
Epsilon Torpedo KTX 5200: 16.8 DPS
Shockwave Torpedo: 22.9 DPS
Velocishard HT: 20 DPS
Black Rain AX24: 42.7 DPS
Plasma Thunderbolt: 46.2 DPS
Plasma Thunderbolt MX: 55.4 DPS
Shaktur firestorm: 36.5 DPS

DPS/Size:
Epsilon Torpedo KTX 3000: 1.85
Velocity Shard: 2.36
Epsilon Torpedo KTX 5200: 2.8
Shockwave Torpedo: 3.82
Velocishard HT: 4
Black Rain AX24: 7.12
Plasma Thunderbolt: 9.24
Plasma Thunderbolt MX: 11.08
Shaktur firestorm: 6.08

The shaktur firestorm has worse damage then the 3 torpedoes preceding it. And it has such crappy range that any torpedo is better than it...

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 54
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/5/2010 5:30:06 PM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Well, except the Dhayut hyperdrive, anyway. That really is the best drive in the game. Of course, to make up for it, they are the absolute crappiest RACE in the game, possessing absolutely no meaningful racial bonus and the worst reproduction rate in the game by a long shot.


There are others... the best ECM in the game, the best vectoring thrusters, the best repair bots, the best fuel pod, and the best hyperdrive are all racial techs...

the shields and torpedoes and reactor racial techs are terrible.

As for sublight engines... well, they are much less efficient with energy use and only slightly faster. but by that point you have more fuel and efficient enough reactors not to care... while the extra speed DOES help.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 55
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/6/2010 2:33:33 AM   
Fishman

 

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline 		Yes, and the one common element with all of those races ith the best-tech is that they all suck. If you look at their stats, they stink, although not quite as much as the Dhayut. The shield is actually quite good, though. Have you ever tried to kill a Zenox ship early on with your puny Maxos Blasters? GOOD LUCK WITH THAT. Damn things are pretty much indestructible.

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 56
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/6/2010 3:01:02 AM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Yes, and the one common element with all of those races ith the best-tech is that they all suck. If you look at their stats, they stink, although not quite as much as the Dhayut. The shield is actually quite good, though. Have you ever tried to kill a Zenox ship early on with your puny Maxos Blasters? GOOD LUCK WITH THAT. Damn things are pretty much indestructible.


Its good vs the WEAKEST weapon in the entire game... thats not good.
It is considered higher tech then shields which are nearly 4 times better than it (Based on mathematical modelling of time to failure based on both total absorption and recharge rate)

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 57
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/6/2010 3:46:25 AM   
exelsiar


Posts: 25
Joined: 4/27/2010
Status: offline 		any chance of seeing the mathematical modelling for that taltamir? ^_^

_____________________________


(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 58
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/6/2010 3:51:13 AM   
Munchies

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 4/21/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Munchies

All of the races are a cakewalk, remember?

If they implement some form of design limitations of the different ship types, then all they would need to do is teach the AI on how to design their ships.
Those shaktur firestorms might not be so shabby when you can no longer pile on 30 engines to outrun everything. And if you do add tons of them, then you are skimping on firepower or shields/armor.

And besides they have stated a weapon balance is on the table.


the shaktur firestorm missiles are still worthless...
1. as mentioned, if they can't outrun you, then you can't catch up to them.
2. High damage loss
3. their DPS is worse then other torpedoes...

Lets list torpedoes from "worst" to best in the game:

DPS:
Epsilon Torpedo KTX 3000: 11.1 DPS
Velocity Shard: 11.8
Epsilon Torpedo KTX 5200: 16.8 DPS
Shockwave Torpedo: 22.9 DPS
Velocishard HT: 20 DPS
Black Rain AX24: 42.7 DPS
Plasma Thunderbolt: 46.2 DPS
Plasma Thunderbolt MX: 55.4 DPS
Shaktur firestorm: 36.5 DPS

DPS/Size:
Epsilon Torpedo KTX 3000: 1.85
Velocity Shard: 2.36
Epsilon Torpedo KTX 5200: 2.8
Shockwave Torpedo: 3.82
Velocishard HT: 4
Black Rain AX24: 7.12
Plasma Thunderbolt: 9.24
Plasma Thunderbolt MX: 11.08
Shaktur firestorm: 6.08

The shaktur firestorm has worse damage then the 3 torpedoes preceding it. And it has such crappy range that any torpedo is better than it...




I did not say they would be the BEST torp in the game, but that they would be better, ie not so shabby, than before.
You may actually catch up to someone loading their ships with heavy weapons and light on engines. Won't be me, and obviously not you. but maybe someone. so therefore they would be better than they are now because you may hit with one lol. AGAIN THIS IS IN THEORY. And it just food for thought and NOT what I want implemented.


But this is a moot point anyway because they already said a weapon balance was coming. and I already agreed that the torps need improving. So who you trying to convince?...
And I also agree the shaktur torp is crap and I would not use it.

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 59
RE: Math Says: Don't use the Super Weapons - 5/6/2010 5:13:55 AM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: exelsiar

any chance of seeing the mathematical modelling for that taltamir? ^_^


I posted it here on the forum... I was looking for it for 10 minutes sine I saw this post and I have yet to find it :P

I will link it if I find it.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to exelsiar)
Post #: 60
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