RE: Derelict fleets game breaker!

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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 11:19:44 AM

Gertjan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

Derelict fleets are incredibly cool and fun.

You're going to roll the AI with your own designs anyway. This isn't any more gamebreaking than allowing custom ships.

you could handicap yourself by turning on AI ship design and, on principle, never designing your own ship.

I would do this, except for the torpedo/bombard weapon "bug". Until the AI stops replacing torpedos with bombs, you really can't afford to let all ship designs be auto.

Plus, they don't put enough fuel tanks on ships and they don't put energy collectors on escorts.

I also prefer to keep ship design automation on. I usually give the ships some additional fuel and a solar collector. This reduces the fuel micromanagement substantially. Isn't the bombardment issue now resolved in update 1.04? I only wonder if adding these things doesnt lead to problems with insufficient power for weapons or engines. How can you tell?

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 31

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 11:46:37 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rustyallan

quote:

bring a ship with weapons (no pulse area effect weapons though)... pause the game... move the mouse around that area where they are piled up until it tells you the target is the enemy ship and not the world destroy, click and watch it die while leaving the world destroyer intact. I think you can now use ctrl+click to select it more specifically.

just make sure you pause the game, and check the order of the ship you gave (maybe unpause and repause quickly). if it says "attack world annihilator" instead of "attach <name of enemy contructor>" pause, tell it to stop, and try again.

Except that I made the choice not to attack them. I doubt I'll make that choice again though. I'm mostly playing through right now leaving as much as I can on automatic to see how the AI plays... To me, it's a bug that I got there first, did the work, and the AI claims it because their ship happened to move near it right as it came online.

I see now, yes this is an issue that needs correcting, even if you can work around it, it shouldn't have happened.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

Derelict fleets are incredibly cool and fun.

You're going to roll the AI with your own designs anyway. This isn't any more gamebreaking than allowing custom ships.

you could handicap yourself by turning on AI ship design and, on principle, never designing your own ship.

I would do this, except for the torpedo/bombard weapon "bug". Until the AI stops replacing torpedos with bombs, you really can't afford to let all ship designs be auto.

Plus, they don't put enough fuel tanks on ships and they don't put energy collectors on escorts.

This has been resolved in 1.0.4.4
Shaktur Firestorm is now a seperate entity, with the proper torpedoes being considered the ultimate torpedo, and the auto design puts a few nukes and a lot of torpedoes and keeps the two seperate.
Also, you say you can't afford it... the AI you are fighting has crippled ships with nukes instead of torpedoes, so you fight it with custom designed ships?
Its about fairness... is this the best ship you can design? no its really reeally bad...
is this ship the same as what the AI is wielding in the same tech level? yes, yes it is. So that is why I use it.

Well... depending on my mood of course. I might use my own designs to wipe the floor with him for a while.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/1/2010 11:49:42 AM >

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Post #: 32

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 3:21:03 PM

jscott991

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Having bombs on ships is really risky.

By "afford" I meant because of the reputation risk in destroying a planet.

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Post #: 33

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 6:05:23 PM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

Having bombs on ships is really risky.

By "afford" I meant because of the reputation risk in destroying a planet.

ah yes, certainly I Agree with you there... I don't think the AI has used them yet for my ships, and when I gave a command order it didn't actually bomb.. I Think there is a safety of sorts you need to bypass... but I could be wrong.

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Post #: 34

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 7:28:46 PM

Pocus

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All your ships are belong to us

Now that I have started harvesting the derelict capital ships, the AI can't do anything to prevent me ... Perhaps I should refrain from repairing them, if I want a challenging game?

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Post #: 35

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 11:38:49 PM

lostsm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsm

it's gona get a ship or two, maybe three, but nothing compared to what even a newbie player can accomplish when finding the derelict fleet.
You must not be seeing the same AI that I'm seeing. I've seen no less than 5 constructors I had to shoot down to claim a derelict fleet...in MY space! I can only imagine that the AI reacts more vigourly to things closer to him.

5! this is something i'd like to see. i suppose if the derelict is right near them then the AI is actually reacting properly

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Post #: 36

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/1/2010 11:49:12 PM

Storper

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

quote:

ORIGINAL: Davor

I find it they put too many fuel tanks on a ship

Really?

My default exploration and military ships are always having to run back for more fuel.

Hmm indeed. Pre 1.04 at least I always used at least twice the amount of fuel tanks on my ships just to get some decent range and reduce the drudgery of running back to port all the time.

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 37

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/2/2010 12:06:04 AM

PDiFolco

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I don't agree to not using them because they're unbalanced : the game shouldn't give that easily such an advantage.
Either put some real guardians (kaltors are a joke), or put only 3-4 ships at most.

(in reply to Storper)

Post #: 38

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/3/2010 12:08:20 AM

hewwo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

I don't agree to not using them because they're unbalanced : the game shouldn't give that easily such an advantage.
Either put some real guardians (kaltors are a joke), or put only 3-4 ships at most.

I think so as well. Or maybe make these ships very expensive to run, so there would be a significant penalty to having them. That would make for a more interesting strategic choice

(in reply to PDiFolco)

Post #: 39

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/3/2010 8:56:52 AM

Nibelung44

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Still, giving the player the opportunity to put his hands on 30+ advanced ships is a game breaker... It just broke my game right now...

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Post #: 40

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/3/2010 11:47:04 AM

Rustyallan

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quote:

Still, giving the player the opportunity to put his hands on 30+ advanced ships is a game breaker... It just broke my game right now...

Sell your galaxy map to another race or three then ignore the fleet. It'll be gone in a few game months and you don't need to worry about it.

(Says the guy who didn't send a fleet of construction ships right away and couldn't find the derelict fleet a few months later...)

(in reply to Nibelung44)

Post #: 41

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/3/2010 1:29:39 PM

Fishman

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See, that result there is proof that the derelict fleet problem is not as bad as it sounds. There are plenty of other derelict fleets out there in the universe, but with one key exception: By the time you get there, THEY AREN'T THERE ANYMORE. The ones YOU find, the AI might not be rushing to grab because they're in YOUR area.

(in reply to Rustyallan)

Post #: 42

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/3/2010 1:37:14 PM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

See, that result there is proof that the derelict fleet problem is not as bad as it sounds. There are plenty of other derelict fleets out there in the universe, but with one key exception: By the time you get there, THEY AREN'T THERE ANYMORE. The ones YOU find, the AI might not be rushing to grab because they're in YOUR area.

I have seen the AI do so...
actually I could swear that the AI for other empires is zelous in grabbing those. while the AI for my own empire (If i turn it on) considers it a much lower priority.

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Post #: 43

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/3/2010 2:07:46 PM

sbach2o

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Joined: 3/26/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

See, that result there is proof that the derelict fleet problem is not as bad as it sounds. There are plenty of other derelict fleets out there in the universe, but with one key exception: By the time you get there, THEY AREN'T THERE ANYMORE. The ones YOU find, the AI might not be rushing to grab because they're in YOUR area.

I guess this is more a matter of exploration than any form of ownership of territory.

In my current game I have persistant troubles with a ship graveyard where I met ships of another empire at the time of my exploration. Later, a parade of constructors from different empires came by, some of them very remote, like the other end of the galaxy. Not all AI empires got involved.

So the hypothesis is: AI send constructors as soon as they learn about the site and a constructor is free from other jobs. Learning about it can be through direct exploration or trade/theft of maps.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I have seen the AI do so...
actually I could swear that the AI for other empires is zelous in grabbing those. while the AI for my own empire (If i turn it on) considers it a much lower priority.

Consider this: How many of your constructors are on auto and how many do you have in total? Even if I leave part of my constructor fleet on auto, it is never all of them.

Or: How fast do you expand and how fast the typical rival AI? Depending on what is going on in your empire, your resource demands and thereby construction needs may be prioritized differently compared to the AI. I am massively out-expanding and out-exploring any AI in my games and can imagine that this has most automated constructors busy constructing mines and resort or other bases rather than going after abandoned ships (but they do). Of course, this is speculation, I have no idea about whether and how the automation AI prioritizes constructor targets.

< Message edited by sbach2o -- 5/3/2010 2:15:22 PM >

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 44

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/3/2010 9:12:48 PM

taltamir

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if you enable full automation of your ships, then ships not on auto are considered to be on auto.

aka... ALL my constructors are on full auto.

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Post #: 45

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/3/2010 9:15:44 PM

Bartje

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strangely enough that actually makes sense.

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Post #: 46

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/4/2010 7:34:02 AM

sbach2o

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

if you enable full automation of your ships, then ships not on auto are considered to be on auto.

aka... ALL my constructors are on full auto.

Oh, I never tried that. And I am never going to. I just do not trust the automation. Whenever I leave a bit automated, then look over the automation's shoulder, there's something going wrong.

< Message edited by sbach2o -- 5/4/2010 7:35:40 AM >

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Post #: 47

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/4/2010 7:45:08 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sbach2o

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

if you enable full automation of your ships, then ships not on auto are considered to be on auto.

aka... ALL my constructors are on full auto.

Oh, I never tried that. And I am never going to. I just do not trust the automation. Whenever I leave a bit automated, then look over the automation's shoulder, there's something going wrong.

the automation has various "don't cancel order by the player" routines... there were some bugs where it did and they were mostly resolved...
I put everything on full auto, letting the AI control hundreds of ships.
I personally take over a 3 fleets of attack ships (ctrl 1 through 3), 3 fleets of troop ships (4 through 6), and utility ships for the rest (7 through 0)... such as constructors, exploration, etc...
the thing is, I wand the rest of my empire to do "useful stuff" while daddy works. and they do... they hunt space monsters, they hunt pirates (even sometimes destroy their bases with a fleet), they repair derelict ships, they even invade enemy planets and destroy enemy ships and bases... if you get into a 3 or 4 front war its very nice to get several of those guys asking for peace while you are personally conquering one, because the AI has been successfully fighting the others on the other fronts... or have the one I am fighting sue for peace as well as 2 the AI, while the fourth one was kicking my AIs butt, in which case I will make peace with the other three and personally handle the one that was besting my AI...

its a matter of scale, I like to think of it as me still being in control, just delegating some work to generals... not as competent as me, but its better then doing nothing...

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Post #: 48

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/4/2010 7:54:05 AM

Fishman

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Personally, I don't mind if they're not quite as competent as me, as long as they don't blatantly screw up and get stuff *I* paid for DESTROYED. That offends me.

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Post #: 49

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/4/2010 8:38:14 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Personally, I don't mind if they're not quite as competent as me, as long as they don't blatantly screw up and get stuff *I* paid for DESTROYED. That offends me.

that is exactly my position... heck, if they were more competent then me then I would get better result by letting them control everything all the time.
At THAT point I wouldn't be playing the game...

They are just supposed to not screw up too badly. and overall, be better then leaving all ships you don't directly control idle.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 50

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/4/2010 9:56:38 AM

sbach2o

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Well, we are definitely off on a tangent here, my comment about the automation was short and very not-to-the-point, insofar that you really must leave a lot automated to survive in this game (as in not micromanage yourself to death).

Constructors are not one of the areas I can let myself leave mostly to automation though.

The real point in my initial post above was

quote:

ORIGINAL: sbach2o

How fast do you expand and how fast the typical rival AI? Depending on what is going on in your empire, your resource demands and thereby construction needs may be prioritized differently compared to the AI. I am massively out-expanding and out-exploring any AI in my games and can imagine that this has most automated constructors busy constructing mines and resort or other bases rather than going after abandoned ships (but they do).

This is bound to govern how many 'free' constructors you have at a given time. Probably only those are available to be sent to repair derelict ships. And I must stress again that I have absolutely no idea in what ways the AI may prioritize repair vs construction of mines or similar things. The capital ships seem to have a quite high priority, at least. I never see AI constructors going after frigates and stuff while better ships are around. They want the best first which is a good thing.

I might add to that: I don't let the AI select which ships to build, so I may have too few constructors (compared to the AI empires) or too many. But as long as the maintenance bills get paid and all constructors are busy with useful projects, there probably aren't too many.

< Message edited by sbach2o -- 5/4/2010 10:03:07 AM >

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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/4/2010 9:59:09 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sbach2o
I might add to that: I don't let the AI select which ships to buils, so I may have too few constructors (compared to the AI empires) or too many. But as long as the maintenance bills get paid and all constructors are busy with useful projects, there probably aren't too many.

Why not? every ship the AI builds is a ship I don't have to... not only do I put ship building to full auto, I also build a ton of ships manually. I build lots of construction ships, colony ships, and military ships manually despite the AI building those automatically as well.

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I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 52

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/4/2010 10:05:40 AM

sbach2o

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This thread is definitely not the place to discuss these automation questions in depth.

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RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/6/2010 11:45:04 AM

SiempreCiego

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the derelict fleets can be a game breaker, but not always.

In my current game, I was given the location of something 'interesting'. Found a mdeium spaceport with good sensor coverage. under the sensor cover there were 3 separate groups of independent ships. Sent a scout to look at each. found 3 whole fleets!
My problem was that the fleet was was on the over side of the galaxy from where my empire was located. So got 5 constructors together to send there and started build additional ones at the spaceyard. Within a year all the ships had been appropriated and I managed to get about 20/30% of hte total!

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Post #: 54

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/6/2010 1:45:03 PM

Rustyallan

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For some of us, finding a derelict fleet can be fun. Looking at it from a game RP perspective, WOW COOL! Look at the awesome alien fleet we found, boss! For a small empire getting hammered by its rivals, those ships can be a lifesaver.

For others, the fleet is a gamebreaker as it makes the game far too easy. Especially early on if you manage to find a fleet and keep it to yourself. Paying for maintenance on that fleet could bankrupt you though...

What if we asked for a slider controlling how often or how early in the game fleets can be found? Or even how much protection they have.
Could that be attached to one of the existing sliders like pirates or monsters?

(in reply to SiempreCiego)

Post #: 55

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/15/2010 7:12:31 AM

the1sean

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what aggression level are you playing on Lostsm? Maybe you need to bump it up a notch for a more competitive/cutthroat competition?

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Post #: 56

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/15/2010 9:26:30 AM

Fishman

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Bumping it DOWN will probably improve competitiveness, actually. Increasing the AI's aggressiveness causes him to start more purposeless wars, and this will destroy or tie up even more of his resources. This will result in less constructors free because they are being run off or destroyed by other AIs, or replacing stuff that IS getting destroyed, and thus, less constructors free to grab things.

(in reply to the1sean)

Post #: 57

RE: Derelict fleets game breaker! - 5/15/2010 2:14:22 PM

taltamir

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I just tried a game on "peaceful" instead of "chaos"...
it was a little harder to "start out" because the AI weren't at war with each other so I had nothing to manipulate... declared war on most powerful empire for tons of tech and the galaxy map... had to subjugate to them when they came to my homeworld.

After that though, they were so peaceful, I had tons of FTAs, and kept on refusing mutual defense treaties (I had some for a while and it didn't work well)... but I just picked off AIs at my leisure. I think it might have been a little easier, not sure... it makes surprisingly little difference.

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I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 58