Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
Slightly off topic. Are the Replenishment CVE's of much use? you seem to be pulling back to bases for replenishment. Just wanted to know if they can keep your carriers "topped off" with aircraft.
thanks

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

I think the odd dive bomber got through and certainly kamikaze's. But a torpedo run should have never have happened. Torpedo attacks are pretty sophisticated and require more time and skill than a plunging plane (Franklin is a good example, dive bomber got her), a torpedo bomber setting up in front of a carrier with massive cap and overwhelming AA including proximity shells is just not realistic this late in the war.

quote:

Not so sure about this. IIRC, the Judy was pretty darn fast in a shallow dive. The nature of the intercept-low level, high speed, difficulty in establishing an intercept vector with imperfect information, etc.-would make real life interception of a TB flying at high speeds problematic.

Of course, the problem with the Judy was that they tended to fly too fast for their torpedoes and / or the pilot would misjudge the closing rate to target or the height above the water. Many of them went 'splat' for this reason, rather than an effective CAP intercept.

_____________________________

quote:

But a torpedo run should have never have happened.

quote:

Really, so in 1944 and 1945 you are clear that no IJNAF or IJAAF ever made a torpedo run on Allied shipping? OR an attack whose profile closely approximated that of a torpedo attack?

An alternate way of expressing this would be to point out that during their ingress to the initiation point ( that point at which the attack run begins ) torpedo bombers, dive-bombers, kamis etc all frequently made rather similar approaches. Only once they reached the initiation point did the dive-bombers dive begin moving into their dive positions, the kamis begin their glides and the torpedo bombers drop down to 200 feet or so. Since the journey to the initiation point is when most interceptions occured statistically speaking planes which made it to the initiation point tended to be able to make their attack runs - no matter what profile that was.

The last puncture in this particular balloon would be to point you to youtube and all of the video there showing kamikazes coming in straight and level at 100 to 200 feet from the sides of ships. Often these kamikazes were torpedo-carrying Kates or Jills. In fact I read some rather interesting articles on pieces of kamikazes recovered from ships hit in famous footage in which several of the kamikazes conducting these low-level attacks at 100 to 200 feet were Kates. So, apart from the fact that you don't like it could you explain to me precisely how this torpedo-carrying plane "shouldn't" have ever made an attack run when there is clear film evidence that kamikazes made almost identical attack runs during the 1944 and 1945 period?

If they could make side-on level flight approaches at 100 to 200 feet in 1944/45 I see no reason why a torpedo-carrying plane could not do so now.

Certainly you might not like to see these planes leak through but if it happened in the real war and resulted in kamikazes making low-level attacks ( as can be seen on many videos ) I see nothing objective which supports your opinion.


As proof I'll post a few links - I don't endorse any glorification of either side in these videos but post them merely for the video of low-level, level flight attacks by kamis which approximate torpedo-bomber attacks quite closely ( and were often the preferred method of attack of Kate and Jill kamis - the Zekes and Vals tended to be the high-approach, steep diving attack profile types )...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj-xkobaRuE
1:00 to 1:14 Clear shots of a level flight low-level kami - flight path approximates Kate attack pattern relatively closely.
1:32 to 1:35 Same again.
2:06 to 2:10 Clear shot of controlled low-level flight into a ship. Carried out by a torpedo-carrying plane later identified as a Kate based on a fragment of a wing someone examined several decades later.

If these guys could make it through CAP and make attack runs quite similar to torpedo attack runs I see no reason why pilots in the game couldn't.


Remember there IS a difference between a result you don't like and a result that shouldn't occur. A lot of people around here forget that difference.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 5/10/2010 8:14:10 PM >

_____________________________

"History, it is just one bloody thing after another."

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

Not so sure about this. IIRC, the Judy was pretty darn fast in a shallow dive. The nature of the intercept-low level, high speed, difficulty in establishing an intercept vector with imperfect information, etc.-would make real life interception of a TB flying at high speeds problematic.

Of course, the problem with the Judy was that they tended to fly too fast for their torpedoes and / or the pilot would misjudge the closing rate to target or the height above the water. Many of them went 'splat' for this reason, rather than an effective CAP intercept.

_____________________________

Did a Judy EVER make a successfully torpedo attack? Certainly not against a carrier and proably not against a capital ship. Don't know that it was ever done.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

Really, so in 1944 and 1945 you are clear that no IJNAF or IJAAF ever made a torpedo run on Allied shipping? OR an attack whose profile closely approximated that of a torpedo attack?

An alternate way of expressing this would be to point out that during their ingress to the initiation point ( that point at which the attack run begins ) torpedo bombers, dive-bombers, kamis etc all frequently made rather similar approaches. Only once they reached the initiation point did the dive-bombers dive begin moving into their dive positions, the kamis begin their glides and the torpedo bombers drop down to 200 feet or so. Since the journey to the initiation point is when most interceptions occured statistically speaking planes which made it to the initiation point tended to be able to make their attack runs - no matter what profile that was.

The last puncture in this particular balloon would be to point you to youtube and all of the video there showing kamikazes coming in straight and level at 100 to 200 feet from the sides of ships. Often these kamikazes were torpedo-carrying Kates or Jills. In fact I read some rather interesting articles on pieces of kamikazes recovered from ships hit in famous footage in which several of the kamikazes conducting these low-level attacks at 100 to 200 feet were Kates. So, apart from the fact that you don't like it could you explain to me precisely how this torpedo-carrying plane "shouldn't" have ever made an attack run when there is clear film evidence that kamikazes made almost identical attack runs during the 1944 and 1945 period?

If they could make side-on level flight approaches at 100 to 200 feet in 1944/45 I see no reason why a torpedo-carrying plane could not do so now.

Certainly you might not like to see these planes leak through but if it happened in the real war and resulted in kamikazes making low-level attacks ( as can be seen on many videos ) I see nothing objective which supports your opinion.


As proof I'll post a few links - I don't endorse any glorification of either side in these videos but post them merely for the video of low-level, level flight attacks by kamis which approximate torpedo-bomber attacks quite closely ( and were often the preferred method of attack of Kate and Jill kamis - the Zekes and Vals tended to be the high-approach, steep diving attack profile types )...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj-xkobaRuE
1:00 to 1:14 Clear shots of a level flight low-level kami - flight path approximates Kate attack pattern relatively closely.
1:32 to 1:35 Same again.
2:06 to 2:10 Clear shot of controlled low-level flight into a ship. Carried out by a torpedo-carrying plane later identified as a Kate based on a fragment of a wing someone examined several decades later.

If these guys could make it through CAP and make attack runs quite similar to torpedo attack runs I see no reason why pilots in the game couldn't.


Remember there IS a difference between a result you don't like and a result that shouldn't occur. A lot of people around here forget that difference.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 5/10/2010 8:14:10 PM >

_____________________________

"History, it is just one bloody thing after another."

Looks like most of these came in at an angle way to high for a torpedo attack. The one guy at 1:01 seem a bit right but still to high. A properly conducted torpedo attack would require lining up the ship for a bit , staying strati, and releasing the torpedo at the correct height and angle. None of these guys seems to have done that. Not saying it can't be done, but does anyone know of a successfully executed torpedo attack against an allied capital ship after 1943?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Hmm, you know, I seem to remember quite a few reports from the Pacific War in which small raids or small fragments of raids DID make it through to make attack runs... Just because something is deleterious to one's cause doesn't make it unfair or unrealistic.