Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

LOL, the Scharnhorst class were hardly BBII's. Maybe according to German propaganda, but they were nothing compared to the Bismark class. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were considered armored cruisers, not battleships. Check out the specs on them and get back to me. Once again some research please? Don't even talk about the Bismark because she wasn't commissioned until Aug 1940. But actually still need to finish outfitting and training thus wasn't ready for service until 41. The Tirpitz was later and near 42 when she was ready for sea.


The raid on Taranto was done at night and against a port that was considered to be heavily armed with light and heavy AA. Yes, the allies had surprise for the first wave and the ships were in port. Still, it showed that air power was now the dominate factor in naval actions. Too bad the British didn't learn from this before they tried to sneak Force Z to help against the invasion of Malaysia. The Japanese air force made quick work of that force which consisted of the Prince of Wales and Repulse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Last turn was uneventful next turn i'll have money for level bomber 2. My partner ara wants me to go with fighter 2. So what do you guys think i should get more importantly?

Also i've got my 10th new DD2 for the fleet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 82ndtrooper

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

LOL, the Scharnhorst class were hardly BBII's. Maybe according to German propaganda, but they were nothing compared to the Bismark class. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were considered armored cruisers, not battleships. Check out the specs on them and get back to me. Once again some research please? Don't even talk about the Bismark because she wasn't commissioned until Aug 1940. But actually still need to finish outfitting and training thus wasn't ready for service until 41. The Tirpitz was later and near 42 when she was ready for sea.


The raid on Taranto was done at night and against a port that was considered to be heavily armed with light and heavy AA. Yes, the allies had surprise for the first wave and the ships were in port. Still, it showed that air power was now the dominate factor in naval actions. Too bad the British didn't learn from this before they tried to sneak Force Z to help against the invasion of Malaysia. The Japanese air force made quick work of that force which consisted of the Prince of Wales and Repulse.

OH my.

I think I detect a challenge here.

as for research I believe I added links where you could read for yourself where I got my info and I see none in your post.

But since you choose not to read my references I will in this one case point out where you are wrong.

while you are right that I was incorrect on when the Tirpitz and Bismarck where commissioned I was also wrong on when they where launched. BOTH where launched in 1939.

The Tirpitz was launched on April 1, 1939 and the Bismarck was launched on February 1939.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Tirpitz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Bismarck

In this game we have WWI battleships which are level 1 and level 2 Battleships which are battleships built AFTER WWI and where upgradable.

Both Scharnhorst Class BB"s where built after WWI and both received multiple upgrades throughout their service that makes them BBII's.
http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders-of-Battle/Fleets-September-1939.htm



As far them being nothing more than armored cruisers as you claim I find that they had the same armor as a battleship and 11" guns that the British want to classify as cruisers. So show me clear proof that they deserve to only be classified as cruisers.
also these two Battleships had far more lucrative careers than either the tirpitz or the Bismark, sinking a British Aircraft carrier and her escorts. The HMS Glorious in june of 1940.
Not to mention that both where supposed to have larger guns installed but where rushed through production and wound up with the smaller 11" guns.

They where in fact battleships.

Not to even mention that some battle-cruisers where at least ,if not more deadly than battleships.

Like I said before Germany had in 1939 2 post WWI BB's 2 WWI BB's and 3 pocket battleships. With 11 Battleships in production.
http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders-of-Battle/Fleets-September-1939.htm

in the game Germany gets 2 BBII's and two more at a later date ( i think). Which is less BB's than they actually had and almost no way to build anymore unlike the west which can build as much as they want once the USA comes online.
According to your way of thinking Germany should have in 1939 2 BBII, and 5 BBI with two BB3 at a later time to represent the Bismarck class.

I Think this is more that your upset because Germany took a gamble and got lucky than it is an unbalance of the game. and what surprises me is that you where not even the player that suffered the losses and yet your upset about them and the player who took the losses understands that sometimes things just don't go your way.

/cheers

PS: I have been thinking about this all night, and wanted to add something else.

Playing this game we the players and especially the western players have an advantage knowing that all of the things that where huge surprises in WWII are coming. The element of surprise that hurt the west so badly in WWII is gone. So you have to do somethings artificially to even things out.

I remember last year when Explorer was first starting this upgrade. that he explained his reasoning for giving Germany BBII's instead of the total count of WWI BB's. There where two factors involved.
The first being supply. in the game all those BB's would have taken more supply and to compensate he would have had to up Germany supply production which would have had a larger effect on the late game.
The second is that during the war Britain gave the Germany navy far more respect than history proved they deserved, by allocating a large part of their navy to do nothing more than be prepared for the German navy should they come out. This was the main importance of the Tirpitz in WWII. Simply tying up a huge amount of allied naval forces by doing nothing. This fear or respect cant be replicated in the game.

Explorers solution was to give Germany the BBII's and a few Cruiser II. Making the German navy just powerful enough to cause some real damage if given the chance but not powerful enough to really do anything else.

And as the above battle shows he has accomplished this.
As the western player you have to always respect the German navy until you sink it or you can take some serious losses. However you don't really have to worry about the German navy ever doing much of anything else.(except for the wolfpacks)
And with the penalties applied to the Germans if they don't invade Russia by a certain time its impossible for Germany to really build more capital ships or any carriers at all. And still have a chance at defeating Russia and winning the game.

its a fine balancing act and I think that Explorer has just about got it right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Last turn was uneventful next turn i'll have money for level bomber 2. My partner ara wants me to go with fighter 2. So what do you guys think i should get more importantly?

Also i've got my 10th new DD2 for the fleet.

I see you already bought Bomber2, but personally I'd go for Fighter2, because airsuperiority is everything. Bomber2 might pay off though, it's a gamble.

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Don't have a lot of time for this post. But the larger issue is the casualties taken by a pure air force vs a pure naval force (no air) and this is in 1939!

Consider this:
- on the scale of WaW, that battle fought was like the German navy shooting down over 100 planes.
- 1939 most naval vessels had small amount of AA considering, remember these ships were laid down many many years before they were completed. Thus, the naval thinking at the time was that planes can't sink big ships. Doolittle was one of those 'radical' thinkers that was able, early on, to prove them all wrong.
- so in 1939, these ships had very little chance to shoot down more than a handful of planes, nothing even remotely close to 100+ (given even best random mod).
- yes, later in war many ships were refitted with 2x, 3x the AA compliment to deal with the no very real concern about planes vs ships. But even then it was still considered absolutely crazy to send ships in range of enemy air with no air cover!
- you won't find any battle of pure ships (no air, no CVs) vs a decent size air force, which had any sort of success against it. Just never happened and especially not in 1939 when ships had such a small compliment of AA to make room for the larger caliber guns.
- USA even started making CLAA class ships to give a fleet some extra protection against air

conclusion: naval vs air in WaW 4T is still broken and should be addresses as it's a key component in the realism factor for WWII.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Wellthe games over now :)

But yea i went NO vichy and then bomber 2. So ara was giving me grief telling me to go fighter 2.

Does anyone besides ara think the no vichy card is worth it? My reasoning is that it will give me a foothold on north africa where i can help close in on the italians from behind and give me another area that i can bring american reinforcements into fairly easily.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Last turn was uneventful next turn i'll have money for level bomber 2. My partner ara wants me to go with fighter 2. So what do you guys think i should get more importantly?

Also i've got my 10th new DD2 for the fleet.

I see you already bought Bomber2, but personally I'd go for Fighter2, because airsuperiority is everything. Bomber2 might pay off though, it's a gamble.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Wellthe games over now :)

But yea i went NO vichy and then bomber 2. So ara was giving me grief telling me to go fighter 2.

Does anyone besides ara think the no vichy card is worth it? My reasoning is that it will give me a foothold on north africa where i can help close in on the italians from behind and give me another area that i can bring american reinforcements into fairly easily.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Last turn was uneventful next turn i'll have money for level bomber 2. My partner ara wants me to go with fighter 2. So what do you guys think i should get more importantly?

Also i've got my 10th new DD2 for the fleet.

I see you already bought Bomber2, but personally I'd go for Fighter2, because airsuperiority is everything. Bomber2 might pay off though, it's a gamble.