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RE: Anemic SBD Production

 
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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/11/2010 8:57:38 PM   
treespider


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Hmmm...After reaching sales of $75 million in 1941, Hormel's production increased to aid in World War II and 65% of its products were purchased by the U.S. Government by 1945.

I bet if the government hadn't purchased so much damn SPAM they could have built more SBD-3's and SBD-4's ...

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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/12/2010 11:54:24 AM   
xj900uk

 

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quote:

Hmmm...After reaching sales of $75 million in 1941, Hormel's production increased to aid in World War II and 65% of its products were purchased by the U.S. Government by 1945


The remaining 35% was purchased by Walmart. After they purchased the Asda's superstore chain in the UK in the early noughties, said 1940's vintage Spam started showing up on its shelves PDQ...

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Post #: 32
RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/12/2010 7:57:16 PM   
minnowguy

 

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Back to the original topic ...  :)

I'm in mid-August 42 versus the AI (scen 9,  iirc) and am seeing much the same thing.  All of my USN CVs are still afloat, but three are in the body-and-fender shop for a good bit so their air groups are hanging around various bases in Australia and SoPac.  (BTW, always remember to transfer your air groups before you put the CV into the shipyard).

Some of the things I've tried:
  • deployed multiple half-strength VS/VB units on my healthy carriers to fill out the air group (be careful about allowing auto-replace if you do this)
  • deployed extra VF and VMF squadrons where I had space; for a while the Wasp became a CAP-specialist carrier with 3 VF and 1 VMF squadrons
  • shuffled planes and pilots around so my most depleted VB squadrons and most of my VTs became temporary training squadrons (BTW, it would be REALLY nice if you could transfer planes BACK to the pool [or directly to other squadrons] without disbanding or withdrawing the whole squadron -- lots and lots of examples of RL units doing this in _The First Team_)
  • pulled the air groups off some of the RN CVs and replaced them with full strength VF units; the Brit CVs then become escort carriers to provide CAP for invasion and resupply TFs and the RN VT squadrons deploy to USN CVs to replace depleted (and useless) TBD squadrons
Apparently the shortage of carrier airframes was a serious RL issue in the Pacific and it would have been worse if the USN hadn't lost the carriers it did.  I'm pretty sure that reallocating airframe production -- especially in 1942 -- required many months of lead time.  Factories had to retool, workers had to be trained to assemble particular airframes and then there is the whole issue of manufacturing sub-components and getting them to the right place. 

It is sort of scary to think of the paperwork involved when the best paperwork technology available was the fountain pen and carbon paper.


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Post #: 33
RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/12/2010 8:32:32 PM   
Rainer

 

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quote:

BTW, always remember to transfer your air groups before you put the CV into the shipyard


Why?

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Post #: 34
RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/12/2010 11:52:24 PM   
minnowguy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

quote:

BTW, always remember to transfer your air groups before you put the CV into the shipyard


Why?


You can only transfer air groups if the ship is active. Once it goes into repair, you have to change its state to 'Readiness' and wait until it becomes active again ...

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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 1:06:56 AM   
Rainer

 

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I see.
Thanks, that's valuable advice

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Post #: 36
RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 1:15:51 AM   
Kadrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
For as much whining and bitching about Japanese aircraft construction...why not simply use the editor provided with the game ---eliminate the Japanese aircraft factories...and give the Japanese their historical allotment of airframes ..."problem" solved....or simply enjoy the game as is.



Any game that restricts one opponent to historical production rates, while allowing the adversary the option of producing at whim - is inherently going to have problems the minute the game produces results that are not on the historical track.
THAT is unavoidable so long as both sides are not allowed the same options to adjust for the game situation.

The real question is, why wasn't this done in the first place? The Japanese should be restricted to their historical allotment of everything just like the Allies, and their ships should be commissioned when they were historically - OR - both sides need the option of production by player choice.

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Post #: 37
RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 1:28:04 AM   
Misconduct


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kadrin

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
For as much whining and bitching about Japanese aircraft construction...why not simply use the editor provided with the game ---eliminate the Japanese aircraft factories...and give the Japanese their historical allotment of airframes ..."problem" solved....or simply enjoy the game as is.



Any game that restricts one opponent to historical production rates, while allowing the adversary the option of producing at whim - is inherently going to have problems the minute the game produces results that are not on the historical track.
THAT is unavoidable so long as both sides are not allowed the same options to adjust for the game situation.

The real question is, why wasn't this done in the first place? The Japanese should be restricted to their historical allotment of everything just like the Allies, and their ships should be commissioned when they were historically - OR - both sides need the option of production by player choice.


Biggest problem is matrix needs to sell the game, so putting Japan to a restriction that garentees them to automatically lose every game without a fight, would leave half the playing population to quit.

Granted you have to go back and look at older games to understand this, war games have always had a tough time with balancing play with realism and most people won't understand this.

Now for AE, only thing that quarks me is the fact Hellcats and Corsairs arn't exactly as dominate as they should have been, gievn the greater flexability of the Japanese, I do believe allies do deserve a historical attribute, I mean frankly allies won the war not japan. I am not taking sides, I do believe Japanese in this game should deserve some sort of help to win the war, however downgrading certain things to make "playability" even is just how games sell these days, if you want realism, then simply make a mod is what I believe in.

However in all honesty, if AE was 100% realistic, nobody would dare play Japan.

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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 1:37:06 AM   
Kadrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct
Biggest problem is matrix needs to sell the game, so putting Japan to a restriction that garentees them to automatically lose every game without a fight, would leave half the playing population to quit.

However in all honesty, if AE was 100% realistic, nobody would dare play Japan.


Japan IS going to lose every single game. There is no other outcome that could possibly happen. It's just a complete mismatch of power, the US is just far more powerful.

The fun is SUPPOSED to be doing better than the Japanese actually did, with full knowledge that in the end you're still going to lose, but you're making them pay a steeper price.

If this game was 100% realistic, I would love to play Japan, to try and do better than they did knowing I am winning because I was BETTER not because I had a crutch with all the silly bonus' they get, and that my opponent was handicapped into historical choices and production.

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Post #: 39
RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 1:52:27 AM   
Misconduct


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Thats just how the game goes for now, and I side with the developers on adding the arcade value where "allies are handicapped into historic choices". Problem is if the developers know they made a historical game and it couldn't sell, there's no way they'd make it. AE is a pretty good balance of Arcade and realism that feeds the hunger, honestly I rather have the game sell enough copies maybe in the feature its possible for a AE 3. In the mean time if realism is such an option, there is always mods and thats what makes games on the computer so awesome.


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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 2:12:41 AM   
Kadrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct
Thats just how the game goes for now, and I side with the developers on adding the arcade value where "allies are handicapped into historic choices". Problem is if the developers know they made a historical game and it couldn't sell, there's no way they'd make it. AE is a pretty good balance of Arcade and realism that feeds the hunger, honestly I rather have the game sell enough copies maybe in the feature its possible for a AE 3. In the mean time if realism is such an option, there is always mods and thats what makes games on the computer so awesome.


The baseline game should be as historically realistic as possible, there should be options and scenarios that allow Japanese capabilities beyond what they historically had, AND there should be options and scenarios that allow the Allies to do the same (maybe a Pacific first policy scenario). But that all comes AFTER the base game is set.

Game sales aside, I played AE for its historical realism, if it's going to be balanced I might as well play a game that isn't trying to be historically realistic, then I won't be as disappointed every time I see something that isn't historical or realistic.

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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 2:39:47 AM   
packerpete

 

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Don't take this the wrong way but I strongly disagree. I would gladly play the japanese side with the historical limitations. However, you could add a few treaks to sweeten it for the Japanese if you start the war in May 1942 till the end and add a small bit of rationality to some of the decisions in the beginning.

These are suggestions for a mod obviously:
1. Don't stop Val and Kate production until you have a viable replacement in volume production.

2. Have at least a barebones pilot training program for the IJNAF and the army.

3. A flexible IJN sub doctrine. You could have a target of opportunity option or an a very ahistorical merchy option.

4. A workable, within limits, ASW strategy. Belatedly, even would be acceptable.

5. Feel free to pile on after this.

The May 1 start date would be a work around for all the supply issues/borking in ASIA.


Since I am getting way off topic, why don't the Dev's allow and the Japanese the option to downgrade aircraft squadrons with the PDU option OFF?


< Message edited by packerpete -- 5/13/2010 2:47:01 AM >

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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 2:45:17 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kadrin
The baseline game should be as historically realistic as possible, there should be options and scenarios that allow Japanese capabilities beyond what they historically had, AND there should be options and scenarios that allow the Allies to do the same (maybe a Pacific first policy scenario). But that all comes AFTER the base game is set.

Game sales aside, I played AE for its historical realism, if it's going to be balanced I might as well play a game that isn't trying to be historically realistic, then I won't be as disappointed every time I see something that isn't historical or realistic.



Kadrin..., you hit the nail right on the head. "Historically Accurate" should ALWAYS be the baseline for a simulation game. Then the designers and the modders can dish up all the "options" their little hearts desire. But if it isn't "right" to begin with, it never will be.

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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 2:45:51 AM   
eMonticello


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It's highly unlikely that the priorities of US industry would shift to create additional naval aircraft if the US didn't lose carriers early in the war. More than likely, a few of the "excess" Essex carriers would be canceled to keep the Truman Committee happy and the newly available resources would be used to support the European Theater.

On another level, if you look at Douglas' El Segundo plant, you see that it's still job shop manufacturing. I don't think Douglas adopted assembly-line manufacturing until the Tulsa plant was built. I suspect Grumman was in the same boat until GM picked up the FM-1 and TBM-1 contracts in 1942. So... Admiral King orders you to limit your losses until production can catch up, since there will be no additional production contracts to fill out your CAGs.

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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 2:54:43 AM   
jonreb31


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The closest you're going to get to historical and realistic is by watching a documentary.. but even then WiTP comes pretty darn close. The Allies are most likely to win just about every game of WiTP and with good reason considering their enormous production, resources and manpower. Even giving Japan control of it's economy is a modest challenge for the sledgehammer that Uncle Sam whips out later in the war. In fact... I'd like to see a link to an AAR where the Japanese have won the war-- the closest I've come across to Japanese "victory" are bloodier and gorier allied victories.




< Message edited by JonReb -- 5/13/2010 2:58:03 AM >


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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 4:06:01 AM   
treespider


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You Guys do realize you can simply use the editor and get rid of the japanese aircraft factories....and give them monthly allotments of aircraft just like the Allies.

But what fun would that be ...you wouldn't have anything to bitch about...

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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 5:40:02 AM   
crsutton


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Well the lack of carrier fighters and bombers is one issue. More critical to me is the inability to train naval fighter pilots and torpedo pilots for the reserve pool. As said before, you can easily train DB pilots with the kingfishers but with no extra shore based navy fighter or torpedo squadrons, my pools of American carrier pilots are zilch.  Meanwhile my Japanese opponent with plenty of land based Naval zero and kate squadrons, is able to keep his pilot pools very flush. Who came up with this idea? I can see giving Japan lots more planes and some pilots but the way training works now just blows for the Allies. Give us a way to train up Navy fighter pilots and torpedo pilots.

Once you get a few CVEs in late 1942 you can use the VR squadrons for training and that helps dramatically (but not for torpedo bombers). You can also swap out the wildcats in those squadrons for buffalos and the SBD3 for your left over SBD2s. This will help with the pools of aircraft.

However, get in a major scuffle with KB in mid 42 or use your navy planes to help defend an important base and you are just SOL as you will not have any fighter pilots in the pool for some time to come.

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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 7:40:05 AM   
FatR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kadrin
If this game was 100% realistic, I would love to play Japan, to try and do better than they did knowing I am winning because I was BETTER not because I had a crutch with all the silly bonus' they get, and that my opponent was handicapped into historical choices and production.

I'm a bit tired of hearing this mantra, because it is untrue. This game, by its very nature (giving the player a God's eye view of the entire theater, full operational and political control and pixeltruppen you can sacrifice as part of your plans all you want) cannot be 100% realistic. Ever. This is an impossible demand. And note, that this nature of the game alone will make Allied forces on the frontline several times stronger than they were in RL, unless the Allied doesn't known how to play.
This game also makes logistics vastly easier than they were in RL, in all aspects, from making bases operational to shipyard availability. Which naturally benefits the side that is on the offensive for most of the game, i.e., Allies.
And finally, the notion that Japan somehow gets "silly bonus'" in the game that still severely nerfs most of IJAAF fighter arm and, before the patches, made Japanese surface combatants horribly inferior from Day 1, is, frankly, ridiculous. No, ability to change the production is not a bonus. It can reward Japanese for a good play, or it can punish them for not micromanaging like crazy. And, as current AARs prove beyond a shadow of doubt, the game actually is balanced about the assumption that a Japanese player will use the control of production to counter massive logistical and other advantagers it offers to Allies. It is almost impossible for Allies not to advance much faster than historical otherwise.

< Message edited by FatR -- 5/13/2010 7:42:07 AM >

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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 9:32:46 AM   
Kadrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR
I'm a bit tired of hearing this mantra, because it is untrue. This game, by its very nature (giving the player a God's eye view of the entire theater, full operational and political control and pixeltruppen you can sacrifice as part of your plans all you want) cannot be 100% realistic. Ever. This is an impossible demand.


Of course it can never be 100%, but he was using the example of 100% and so I went with that. The fact that one person controls EVERYTHING on their side makes the game unrealistic. The fact that the Japanese player knows the strength of every unit on map at start and knows exactly where it is, and how fast it can be moved elsewhere, and what is and isn't important to take by a certain time before the Allies can reinforce it, is also completely unrealistic, but that's a combination of hindsight and just plain being able to fire up the game from the Allied side and take a look at what they have and knowing how to use the game mechanics to accomplish those tasks.

But that's neither here nor there, there is only so much that can be done, doing what they can the best they can is all we can ask for.


quote:

And note, that this nature of the game alone will make Allied forces on the frontline several times stronger than they were in RL, unless the Allied doesn't known how to play.


How so? Most of the allied units on the map start 25-75% disabled, in bad positions. If you're refering to the Artillery Deathstars, that's just a broken game mechanic that both sides can abuse until it's hopefully fixed.


quote:

This game also makes logistics vastly easier than they were in RL, in all aspects, from making bases operational to shipyard availability. Which naturally benefits the side that is on the offensive for most of the game, i.e., Allies.


Logistics are a 2-way street, it's easier for both sides. The only way it benefits the allies more, that I can see, is they have more ships and engineers to speed up repairs/transportation, which they did have vastly more of than the Japanese.

quote:

And finally, the notion that Japan somehow gets "silly bonus'" in the game that still severely nerfs most of IJAAF fighter arm and, before the patches, made Japanese surface combatants horribly inferior from Day 1, is, frankly, ridiculous.


If I'm not mistaken, the Japanese do get few bonus', one of which being their invasion bonus which minimizes disruption and fatigue for land units for the first 4 months.

Your game experience may vary depending on what you and your opponent do, but from what I've seen Japanese fighters are not nerfed. Most of them were worse than contemporary Allied fighters and only attained success through numbers and surprise (the destruction Philippine air force comes to mind there). While others were a match for the early fighters but soon fell far behind (A6M2/3 vs F4F-3/4, probably one of the most equal match ups of the war, whilst A6M5 vs F6F was a total mismatch with the F6F being a vastly better fighter).

As for naval combat, what made the Japanese horribly inferior was radar. I'm pretty sure they've toned it down now since it was far to effective in the early months when it wasn't that developed.


quote:

No, ability to change the production is not a bonus. It can reward Japanese for a good play, or it can punish them for not micromanaging like crazy. And, as current AARs prove beyond a shadow of doubt, the game actually is balanced about the assumption that a Japanese player will use the control of production to counter massive logistical and other advantagers it offers to Allies. It is almost impossible for Allies not to advance much faster than historical otherwise.


While I don't consider production a bonus as such, it is a severe advantage. The Japanese player gets to focus production on the few models that are most effective. What's the alternative? Instead of every squadron equipped with say Oscars or Tonys (which ever you decided to produce), you would still be using Nates in a number of squadrons simply because you're aren't producing enough of the others. This is an advantage.

Are the Allies advancing too fast in every game? I don't know I don't read AAR's.
Maybe Allied players are using hindsight with a combination of being able to ignore politics and leaving rear areas completely undefended and throwing everything into the offensive?
Maybe the Japanese players aren't as good as they think they are?
Maybe the Allies really do have too much?
Maybe the Allies are choosing only one Axis of attack and pouring all assets into it while the Japanese defending 3 or 4 or 5 potential axis'?

Again I don't read AARs I don't know, but if the game is designed around slowing this advance through control of production then what really needs to be changed here?

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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 12:33:05 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well the lack of carrier fighters and bombers is one issue. More critical to me is the inability to train naval fighter pilots and torpedo pilots for the reserve pool. As said before, you can easily train DB pilots with the kingfishers but with no extra shore based navy fighter or torpedo squadrons, my pools of American carrier pilots are zilch.  Meanwhile my Japanese opponent with plenty of land based Naval zero and kate squadrons, is able to keep his pilot pools very flush. Who came up with this idea? I can see giving Japan lots more planes and some pilots but the way training works now just blows for the Allies. Give us a way to train up Navy fighter pilots and torpedo pilots.

Once you get a few CVEs in late 1942 you can use the VR squadrons for training and that helps dramatically (but not for torpedo bombers). You can also swap out the wildcats in those squadrons for buffalos and the SBD3 for your left over SBD2s. This will help with the pools of aircraft.

However, get in a major scuffle with KB in mid 42 or use your navy planes to help defend an important base and you are just SOL as you will not have any fighter pilots in the pool for some time to come.




Whine bitch complain...did you ever think to set your Kingfisher Squadrons to traing with Sweep?

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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 12:43:00 PM   
Smeulders

 

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And if I may add to that, Catalinas have torpedoes.

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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 12:57:22 PM   
Grit


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There always seems to be a theme that emerges in this type of thread.

If the Allied players have concerns and complain it's because they don't know how to play the game.

< Message edited by Grit -- 5/13/2010 12:59:06 PM >


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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 1:15:29 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grit

There always seems to be a theme that emerges in this type of thread.

If the Allied players have concerns and complain it's because they don't know how to play the game.



There is always the editor... you can set Japanese pilot replacements to 2....and eliminate their factories giving then monthly pool allocations just like the Allied player.

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"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

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Post #: 53
RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 1:16:30 PM   
Nomad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well the lack of carrier fighters and bombers is one issue. More critical to me is the inability to train naval fighter pilots and torpedo pilots for the reserve pool. As said before, you can easily train DB pilots with the kingfishers but with no extra shore based navy fighter or torpedo squadrons, my pools of American carrier pilots are zilch.  Meanwhile my Japanese opponent with plenty of land based Naval zero and kate squadrons, is able to keep his pilot pools very flush. Who came up with this idea? I can see giving Japan lots more planes and some pilots but the way training works now just blows for the Allies. Give us a way to train up Navy fighter pilots and torpedo pilots.

Once you get a few CVEs in late 1942 you can use the VR squadrons for training and that helps dramatically (but not for torpedo bombers). You can also swap out the wildcats in those squadrons for buffalos and the SBD3 for your left over SBD2s. This will help with the pools of aircraft.

However, get in a major scuffle with KB in mid 42 or use your navy planes to help defend an important base and you are just SOL as you will not have any fighter pilots in the pool for some time to come.




Whine bitch complain...did you ever think to set your Kingfisher Squadrons to traing with Sweep?


Don't they take a skill and/or experience hit when they change from float plane to fighter?

I just take all the USN air units off of one CV and put Marines on board. That gives me USN trainers and USMC carrier trained air groups( takes a month or two).

< Message edited by Nomad -- 5/13/2010 1:17:26 PM >


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RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 2:59:49 PM   
FatR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kadrin

How so? Most of the allied units on the map start 25-75% disabled, in bad positions. If you're refering to the Artillery Deathstars, that's just a broken game mechanic that both sides can abuse until it's hopefully fixed.

Artillery is nerfed into being only good for fire intelligence shells under the last patch. Here I mostly referred to the fact that with minimally adequate management Allies very soon easily will be able to provide several times of the historical troop concentration in the active theaters, and launch more planes in a single raid than they, again, historically had in the entire theater at the time. I don't remember Allies being able to commit 150 planes (including 50 Lightnings and 50 Fortresses) to a single airbase attack in SWPac on August 3, 1942, yet that's what I just did. As about Allied ground forces, they are significantly more powerful than in RL at the beginning of the game, as evidenced by the fact that Japanese simply cannot take what they took historically using the same forces against a minimally competent opponent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kadrin
Logistics are a 2-way street, it's easier for both sides. The only way it benefits the allies more, that I can see, is they have more ships and engineers to speed up repairs/transportation, which they did have vastly more of than the Japanese.

No, it is not. Because Allies are supposed to spend as much as four times more turns on the offensive, easier logistics, resulting in much faster operational tempo and ability to pull stunts, that would have been crazy in RL, rewards them disproportionally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kadrin
If I'm not mistaken, the Japanese do get few bonus', one of which being their invasion bonus which minimizes disruption and fatigue for land units for the first 4 months.

This is a mechanics that serves to compensate for the fact that fighting ability of early-game Allied troops is boosted, compared to RL (I dare you to try taking Palembang by paradrop, even against the initial garrizon), and both of them are probably in the game to allow for a greater degree of deviation from history in operation planning, while still preserving the balance of power, to an extent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kadrin
Your game experience may vary depending on what you and your opponent do, but from what I've seen Japanese fighters are not nerfed. Most of them were worse than contemporary Allied fighters and only attained success through numbers and surprise

No, they weren't. Ki-43 was equal or better and Zero was generally better than Allied fighters that opposed them in 1942. It is impossible to argue that IJAAF fighters are perform as they did historically, because it is obvious that they don't. Take, for example, Ki-27. Read, say, this
http://www.warbirdforum.com/lucky.htm
and try telling me with a straight face that exchange ratios like mentioned there are at all possible against AVG in the game. Even I-15s generally fight Ki-27s to a draw in air combat, despite being operated by incredibly poor pilots, while in RL Ki-27 dominated I-15 completely. Also, just try shooting down even Chinese bombers with them, and you'll start to wonder, why they have such problems taking down SB-3s, if they hadn't at Nomonhan.

Same argument can be made for Ki-43s and so on, just with Ki-27 the problem is most salient and easiest to identify.

And I can don't really mind stuff like this, by the way, as Allied equipment has its own gameplay quirks. Just don't tell me, that Allies are shafted exlusively, because that's pretty clearly not true.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kadrin
As for naval combat, what made the Japanese horribly inferior was radar. I'm pretty sure they've toned it down now since it was far to effective in the early months when it wasn't that developed.

Except, where is that horrible inferiority you're talking about? If you're talking about the increse in Allied night fighting successes in Solomons, keep in mind, that Allies had a massive tactical advantage by the very nature of their missions (intercepting fast troop convoys in the area where Allies had air superiority by daylight) in nearly all battles there, and still their record, although improved, wasn't exactly a string of victories. (As about radar, Japanese had it in widespread use by the middle of 1943.) The only daylight artillery battle of 1943 was won by Japanese. And in 1944 Japanese lost one surface battle where they weren't doomed from the beginning by not having sufficient forces - and there they were costantly plastered from the air.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kadrin
Are the Allies advancing too fast in every game?

We don't know, because due to very nature of PBEM play most games are still in 1942, so we can just tell that it is very possible to rout Japan in 1942, because this happened in at least three AARs and is going to happen in the fourth. On the opposite side, there was one example of Japanese point victory in the beginning of 1943. Once more games go through 1943, we'll be able to say for sure.





(in reply to Kadrin)
Post #: 55
RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 3:53:43 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

I'm a bit tired of hearing this mantra, because it is untrue. This game, by its very nature (giving the player a God's eye view of the entire theater, full operational and political control and pixeltruppen you can sacrifice as part of your plans all you want) cannot be 100% realistic. Ever. This is an impossible demand. And note, that this nature of the game alone will make Allied forces on the frontline several times stronger than they were in RL, unless the Allied doesn't known how to play.


And here people just thought Joe and I suck because we are experiencing 1944 as Japan in Oct of 42.

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(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 56
RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 4:15:50 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus



And here people just thought Joe and I suck because we are experiencing 1944 as Japan in Oct of 42.



Your not the only sucky Japanese players...in my game with Przemek I just took Batavia on April 15, 42 with three divisions, an IMB and two tank regiments....after a 2-3 week siege...and Singapore still stands even though I used an extra division in its siege...hopefully the Kwantung Army will turn the tide at Singapore...

In the meantime Burma apparently will remain Allied as Przemek brought in the kitchen sink...maybe I'll just try an end run for Karachi.

< Message edited by treespider -- 5/13/2010 4:16:54 PM >


_____________________________

Here's a link to:
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"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 57
RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/13/2010 4:38:30 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
we're investing in atomic bombs delivered by nuclear powered rockets.

Those silly Aussies will never know what him em....

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(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 58
RE: Anemic SBD Production - 5/14/2010 2:30:11 AM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline
To get to the point of it all - all Kadrin is saying is simply that 'Historical' should always be the baseline, and then create what-if scenario options...as my friend Mike Scholl points out below.

Feinder once summed it up nicely "all I want is to have the forces that historically were available, and unit capabilities that can be expected to perform as they historically did under like circumstances".

That is all one can ask for - THEN let the rest follow as interesting possibilities (and much power to it for other possibilities).

As for "stop the bitching and use the editor" - well, it's great that at least we have an editor...true?

Bye...

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kadrin
The baseline game should be as historically realistic as possible, there should be options and scenarios that allow Japanese capabilities beyond what they historically had, AND there should be options and scenarios that allow the Allies to do the same (maybe a Pacific first policy scenario). But that all comes AFTER the base game is set.

Game sales aside, I played AE for its historical realism, if it's going to be balanced I might as well play a game that isn't trying to be historically realistic, then I won't be as disappointed every time I see something that isn't historical or realistic.



Kadrin..., you hit the nail right on the head. "Historically Accurate" should ALWAYS be the baseline for a simulation game. Then the designers and the modders can dish up all the "options" their little hearts desire. But if it isn't "right" to begin with, it never will be.



(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 59
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