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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR

 
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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/12/2010 11:20:21 PM   
PyleDriver


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One last thing. I'm the youngest of three boys. My brothers were fighters and beat me alot. They said Jonny, after I hurt them back (their were 5 & 6 years older) look for the biggest guy and take him out, and the rest will go running...Now you have the rest of the story....Yes I am aggressive, and love it...But I don't hurt a women, theres enought asses out there already...lol...Really I like the battle of the minds, there is so many unarmed people out there...lol...Hell I get hurt getting out of bed now...lol...Enjoy this AAR, It's nap time for this old dog...Hoth and Model will start up the motors very soon...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 3:14:07 AM   
PyleDriver


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(DAR) had to post this. 2nd PzA busted the Oka also, Ryazan was in the coner of my eye. Balck pressed forward and Hube got another bridgehead...Alot will continue...4th army is ready to roll...

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< Message edited by PyleDriver -- 5/13/2010 3:15:08 AM >


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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 4:35:32 AM   
wmcalpine

 

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Jon,

Impressive work. I wonder what formations are around Moscow.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 10:11:46 AM   
PyleDriver


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I'm hoping theres alot of stuff there (Moscow). I really need to trap them...If they keep pulling away this thing could be lost...43 is a hole different ball game, the real problem is the Germans didn't take Leningrad in 41. That was a must take...Btw I'm writing the S&T, damn who could be better, lol, Leningrad in 41, Moscow in 42...Then the house of cards will fall...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 11:09:10 AM   
ComradeP

 

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Well, we agree on the order of importance for the capture of Leningrad and Moscow.

Is there any reason why the Panzers in cyan are currently advancing in the direction of numerous swamps, a terrain type which you intended to avoid earlier?

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 11:09:14 AM   
PyleDriver


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Well Heinrici's 4th army was a mess. How he cleared the pockets is a mistery. I had to move so many units around (lack of AP's) just to get them uniform. But now, there ready C&C my friends, LVI PzC did press a little north, while reorganization took place...




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 11:54:46 AM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

Isn't that precisely what having Kleist running around as a loose canon away from the main axis of attack is designed to avoid? If you throw all your reserves at Hoth, then Kleist runs amok, forcing you to move South to counter. Then Model kicks off and you need reserves there. Rinse and repeat...


To me, thinking as the defender is never about what you will lose or won't achieve, as that's often pretty obvious, it's about what you can afford to lose and trying to figure out what you can achieve.

Even though the game is months from release and I've never touched it, I've been thinking a lot about the Soviet strategy in the past few weeks. Starting a 1941 game and not accepting that, potentially, you'll lose everything West of Moscow will be problematic, as the early disasters which are more or less automatic will ruin your morale and strategy. To me, it would be about working from West to East starting at Moscow and not the other way around in terms of planning a defence.

You're thinking too much in terms of the attacker. As the defender, you should never do what the attacker wants you to do, unless it's what you intended to do in the first place.

If the attacker is breaking through your frontline in more than one sector, determine which sector(s) you can lose and which sector(s) you really need.

There's a lot of open steppes in the South, the Soviets could easily withdraw a bit without giving up any truly important cities. That would also drag the Germans further to the East. Good for you, bad for them.

Let's say the Germans want to encircle Moscow, like PyleDriver is doing now. They will probably try to decrease the pressure on the main axis of advance through attacking other sectors, because that's a standard military strategy and it would almost be foolish not to do so. In this case, the attacker relies on two assumptions: 1) the defender will be strong where the attacker expects him to be strong, which is near Moscow in this case 2)as a result, the defender is fairly weak everywhere else.

Moscow is the logical target, so from the first turn you place some guys in many of the good terrain hexes or the Moscow side of rivers and let them dig in for a couple of months. It would be nice if leaving them alone like that would both boost their morale/experience as described earlier and the fort level of the hex.

Such a defensive position can be held with a minimum of manpower, whilst it will still be strong enough to make sure the Germans need to use a lot of force to get in.

At the same time, you prepare the position you want the Germans to attack at the flanks several months in advance. You create an appearance of strength, but not make it too obvious that it's actually not a crucial part of your defence, and you make sure the appearance is credible through placing plenty of expendable units there that will basically die for the cause.

Let's say that a force like what Kleist is using in this game will attack that part of the front. The front will break up, you'll take losses but so will the Germans. The Germans will designate a few cities in the area crucial objectives. However, just like the deaths of millions is basically a statistic, to you the cities are just a spot on a map somewhere because you're playing the Soviets and you know that the city is probably completely insignificant to the overall outcome of the conflict. You'll get it back in due time in any case.

Kleist has 5 Panzer divisions and 2 motorised divisions, as well as a comparitively small amount of infantry divisions. When Kleist strikes, preferably placing troops on "your" side of a river, you hit him with half a million men that have been training to do just that for several months and thousands of tanks. You'll send a couple of waves of hundreds of obsolete aircraft (you have plenty of those) over to attack the Luftwaffe. Your aircraft will probably be butchered (which you can afford) but will tire the Luftwaffe pilots, and then you mix a wave of obsolete aircraft with the quality air groups that you have been training for months. Due to the fatique, the Luftwaffe should be taking some losses and will be far less prepared to counter what your bombers are scheduled to do to the Panzer divisions.

The Germans get a few hexes closer to Moscow and maybe a city or two elsewhere, and you weaken or pulverise what comes down to two Panzer Corps. That's a trade I'll make any day of the week as the Soviets.

After that, the Germans will have to bring in reinforcements and you will achieve what the Germans are trying to achieve: reduce pressure on the crucial sector.

As the defender, you decide when and where to strike, not the attacker.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 4:42:22 PM   
jaw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

One last thing. I'm the youngest of three boys. My brothers were fighters and beat me alot. They said Jonny, after I hurt them back (their were 5 & 6 years older) look for the biggest guy and take him out, and the rest will go running...Now you have the rest of the story....Yes I am aggressive, and love it...But I don't hurt a women, theres enought asses out there already...lol...Really I like the battle of the minds, there is so many unarmed people out there...lol...Hell I get hurt getting out of bed now...lol...Enjoy this AAR, It's nap time for this old dog...Hoth and Model will start up the motors very soon...


Jon,

I apologize for knocking you so far off topic. We shouldn't be consuming space that could be used for more screen shots!

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 4:46:09 PM   
PyleDriver


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You know Comrade, this reminds me of a story when I was 12. I was at a friends house and I told their dad how I didn't like how he had his guns hung on the wall. He said "young stud, you go buy some guns and a rack and hang them way you want at your house"...I was slamed huh...lol...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 5:22:53 PM   
Ron

 

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You know Pyledriver, perhaps one day,

you will get over yourself,

Until then, angst and fret away,

Oh yeah... lol.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 6:11:12 PM   
SGHunt


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Now, Ron, don't be rude to the nice man who is giving us all these pretty pictures!  

Jon - Comrade was talking back to me about defensive strategy; I think he was as much as anything trying to support the programming for the Russian AI and he makes some good points.   And he is right - I am in the attack mode!    

Comrade - I stilll think your suggested approach is difficult.   OK, you clobber two panzer corps with 500,000 men and many war machines -they fall back, damaged and in need of refit.     I know your massive counter will draw some forces away from Moscow, but who's defending Moscow against say four or five Panzer corps and 3 infantry armies?   I'll trade Moscow for two panzer corps and 100 miles of dirt anyday.

Now, more screenies, please, Uncle Jon
Stuart

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 6:11:33 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Indeed PyleDriver, to each his own.

However, this isn't the first Eastern Front game on an operational/strategic level, so I still believe that tactics and strategies that worked in other games, like the TOAW scenarios covering Barbarossa, might work in this game too, even though it's a different game.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 7:48:31 PM   
PyleDriver


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Guess what I said holds true, buy your own guns and rack, and put it on the wall as you want...Me, I do have alot of spunk, my brothers never kicked it out of me...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 8:36:07 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Still not sure about the model, I'm not sure Germany could sustain such an intensity of warfare (which does not really help the AI). But despite that the game looks great. Not needing the Axis allies in the frontline kind of surprises me.

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 5/13/2010 8:45:45 PM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 8:53:57 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Still not sure about the model, I'm not sure Germany could sustain such an intensity of warfare (which does not really help the AI). But despite that the game looks great. Not needing the Axis allies in the frontline kind of surprises me.


It's because Pyledriver was very clever in avoiding repeating Fall Blau.

Axis minor formations in the front lines only became absolutely essential due to the incredible length of the front as the Germans advanced towards the Volga and Caucasus.

He's not playing that game. He also got rid of a bunch of salients early on, freeing up Germans for use elsewhere. He has a single, limited objective and everything is being geared around that. His means are tailored to his ends.

Therefore, the axis minors in his 1942 campaign can be limited in the same way they were mostly limited in 1941.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 8:54:31 PM   
Joel Billings


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Well, Jon seems to if anything have shortened the lines, not lengthened them, since he didn't move into the Caucasus and also straightened the lines out in the north. That saves hundreds of miles of frontline. Even so, you can see Hungarian and Rumanian units in the front lines in the south.

Jon and I did play an epic WBTS game which was one of the best games I've ever played. He's been a good tester for many years and many games. I just wish he learned how to find the folders on his computer, right Jon.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 9:25:59 PM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
It's because Pyledriver was very clever in avoiding repeating Fall Blau.

Axis minor formations in the front lines only became absolutely essential due to the incredible length of the front as the Germans advanced towards the Volga and Caucasus.

He's not playing that game. He also got rid of a bunch of salients early on, freeing up Germans for use elsewhere. He has a single, limited objective and everything is being geared around that. His means are tailored to his ends.

Therefore, the axis minors in his 1942 campaign can be limited in the same way they were mostly limited in 1941.



I think you kinda miss my point. The intensity of Fall Blau falls along way short of what we have here which whilst it might be clever suspends belief just a bit. It seems a bit redundant having a line on the map that Axis allies cant cross yet Germany in 42 is strong enough to limit their deployment to @ 50 miles of front.

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 5/13/2010 9:32:13 PM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 9:28:52 PM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Well, Jon seems to if anything have shortened the lines, not lengthened them, since he didn't move into the Caucasus and also straightened the lines out in the north. That saves hundreds of miles of frontline. Even so, you can see Hungarian and Rumanian units in the front lines in the south.

Jon and I did play an epic WBTS game which was one of the best games I've ever played. He's been a good tester for many years and many games. I just wish he learned how to find the folders on his computer, right Jon.


What are they taking up 5 hexes? Im not sure offensive deployment takes up more frontage than defensive deployment. just an observation

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 10:07:52 PM   
roman uk

 

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Both sides were close to breaking point at alternative times in dec 41/jan 42.

Many historians have argued a concerted push to Moscow to force the soviets to commit their reserves and battle on their production and population heartlands
as the better strategic choice for the offensive of 42. Others say Moscow was too well defended, but static defenses didnt seem to work well on the eastern front...

Pyledryver has effectively shortenned his lines and concentrated high quality units. Taking tula (t34 center) and voronezh, ryazan, rostov, etc. will hurt, perhaps MOSKBA next?

< Message edited by roman uk -- 5/13/2010 10:10:07 PM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 10:17:31 PM   
Flaviusx


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Smirfy, how much frontage was taken in 1941 by axis minors? You had the Romanians in Odessa and then the Crimea, and I suppose the Spanish Blue division up by Leningrad, but mostly, it was Germans. Nothing at all like the hundreds of miles of front line in 1942. So, yeah. The length of his front in 1942 is of a similar scale.

PD has economized on formations both in Leningrad and near Rostov, too. (Although this has caused him some occasional headeaches.) His true concentration of force is from Vishny Volochek down to east of Voronezh. He isn't piled 3 deep along the entire front.

That said, I think his drive past Voronezh is questionable from an economy of force standpoint. I would have stopped by the river and shut down that part of the front to free up more forces for enveloping Moscow.

Edit: the unrealism here lies in the AI's reactions, or lack thereof. This is what's making it all look a bit too easy. Sending a big chunk of your armor to Rostov for giggles isn't helping the Soviet cause, either. I don't want to say PD is stealing candy from a kid here, but...

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 5/13/2010 10:41:59 PM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 10:56:29 PM   
Joel Billings


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Yes, I think that Smirfy misunderstood. I was saying the entire lines were shortened, and thus the AA didn't need to be in the front.

As for the AI. Yes, I can't argue that a decent human player wouldn't play much better. Can't think of a game where I wouldn't say that. Someone playing this game for 17 months (pretty much without a break) should be playing the AI at hard level if he wants a challenge (I think Jon is at Challenging, which is 40%-45 to hard). Will the AI get better before release? Yes. Will it get a lot better? Honestly, I don't think so. Compared to many games it's pretty good already.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 11:01:20 PM   
Joel Billings


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Flaviusx is right. The AA only took the frontline slots after the front widened with the move into the Caucasus. As of June 27, 42 they occupied only 60 miles of frontline (70 if you count the Crimea).

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 11:01:53 PM   
Flaviusx


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Well, I'm realistic about this. I'm happy if the AI is good enough for me to learn the game and then switch over to PBEM. I think it will suffice on that score.

Maybe one of these days I'll take on PD for myself and then we can settle this hash the right way.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 11:12:48 PM   
SGHunt


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Well said!   Will this be an 'at dawn' sort of event?  

Don't forget we want the gory details if and when you go at it...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/13/2010 11:20:04 PM   
henri51


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
As to pockets: I think I agree with Zorch. I have yet to see an AI in a wargame that can't be pulled into a trap with relative ease: pull back from a part of the line, creating a bulge shaped area facing your side of the front (so a bulge to the west), with strong armoured/motorized forces at the flanks. Let the AI move into the bulge, trap the AI units next turn with the forces at the flanks. Repeat at your leisure. A human player won't fall for that trick, but the AI usually will.


Well, the Romans did at Cannae against Hannibal, and the Austrians and Russians did against Napoleon at Austgerlitz....and they WERE humans...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/14/2010 8:35:16 AM   
wosung

 

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About the overall strength figures in Post # 504:

I think the readiness rate is VERY high. 10 percent damaged tanks and planes seem to be far too low for summer operations.

Regards

< Message edited by wosung -- 5/14/2010 3:50:23 PM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/14/2010 4:46:08 PM   
PyleDriver


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Good morning Russia, lol, hope you know the movie. Well it was another conflict...Armin is still a beast and swept from the north and returned to profide the flank. Kalinin is mine, and Moscow is in question...Another note, you have to keep your rear in order, thus the security unit. You don't want those little bastards cliping your supply lines...




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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/14/2010 5:03:04 PM   
Joel Billings


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

About the overall strength figures in Post # 504:

I think the readiness rate is VERY high. 10 percent damaged tanks and planes seem to be far too low for summer operations.

Regards



Very perceptive. We recently added in the readiness totals so we could study this in the game. One thing to keep in mind is that each turn (week), 1/2 of all damaged elements are returned to the general pool. These then become available to be resent to units that are in need of replacements. This represents damaged equipment and wounded soldiers being sent further back up the chain from the unit repair depots and field hospitals. These items don't come back immediately, depending on the supply line status of the unit requesting the replacements, and whether the unit has been set to refit. I've had the sense for awhile that it's been too easy to get heavy equipment (especially AFVs) repaired and back to other units on the front. It's something we're looking at.

Not to deflate Jon's AAR too much, but something that everyone should be aware of is that although the later war scenarios (like the 42 scenario) have been very playable for awhile, we're only just finishing our final production review for the 41-45 campaign. For the later war scenarios we had some automated methods of trying to get production changes to show up in these later scenarios, but we knew they were only placeholder as we were waiting to get the 41-45 campaign set before going through each scenario to make sure we've accounted for things like factory movement and population migration. So we told Jon to go ahead and play the game so we could work on the basic AI reactions, but that the production numbers were likely to be off and the scenario would depart further from reality the further he went into the game. I can't tell you what's off, could be that there are too many or too few tanks being produced. We are probably missing some factories that moved east at the start of the war, but then we may have some other that auto grew larger than in the actual war. I'm pretty sure we don't have any population migration so the Soviets are missing some population that we would place east of the startline from Soviet cities that were on the west of the startline at the beginning of the war. I'm not trying to take away from Jon's AAR and it's importance in helping Gary improve the AI. Just don't get too hung up on balance yet. The game won't be radically different from what you see on the surface in Jon's game, but it's hard to say just yet how much different it will be once these details are finished off.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled AAR.

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Post #: 538
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/14/2010 5:23:36 PM   
PyleDriver


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Joel, did you really put that on my AAR. I'm tring to keep some order here, everyone is posting crap everywhere, then you do it. Start a new thread...Please...And yes I just told the boss to do it...So you guys can also...This is my stage...

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Post #: 539
RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/14/2010 5:42:25 PM   
SGHunt


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Jon

Again, a good hit on Kalinin.   I thought that would take a week longer.

I was going to ask why not swap Armin's corps with one of Model's Infantry Corps and have Armin as part of  Model's army.   Two panzer corps being better than one, as I'm sure we all agree , and you use the infantry for flank protection.   

But then I noticed you have 0 admin points!  

Would this be a good idea when you do have the admin points?   I mean, is it worth the cost?   What are the advantages of having the two Pz Corps under a joint army command?   I'm trying to get to grips with the C&C.

Thanks again for distracting me from work
Stuart



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