Map editing; viaducts wanted!

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Map editing; viaducts wanted! - 11/26/2000 7:36:00 PM

edgar

Posts: 16
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Nijmegen, the Netherlands
Status: offline

Right now I am working on a map of Nijmegen and have encountered a little problem. I would like to make several roads that run parallel with the waal-river and pass under the Waal-bridge and railroad-bridge. It is not possible to this right now with the available map-editing tools. Is there any chance that this will be made possible in the next version of SPWAW? I know this is not an easy thing to realise since this would allow that 2 units can cross each other in the same hex (but on different levels) without being in contact. Edgar ------------------

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- 11/26/2000 9:32:00 PM

Dave_R

Posts: 84
Joined: 9/22/2000
From: England
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Edger. I fear that this is something that we'll not see in SPW@W. The core game engine is a two dimentional engine and cannot cope with true 3d. It is able to simulate 3d with the terrain elevations, but it doesn't have the ability to note having troops in the same hex but at different levels. It's for the same reason that we don't have multi floored buildings. I think that all we can hope for, is that the guys at Matrix take this into account when they eventually get around to making their own SP type game from scratch

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- 11/26/2000 10:30:00 PM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
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Dave hit the nail right on the head. That is the case. It could possibly have been done, just as rivers run under bridges, to also have roads run under bridges, but there was not enough time to effect that change....Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Wild Bill Wilder
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- 11/27/2000 11:54:00 AM

David boutwell

Posts: 353
Joined: 5/28/2000
From: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
Status: offline

Many of the attacks made on the Arnhem Bridge perimeter by armor proceeded down streets that ran under the bridge. Therefore, taking the traditional route for this map, having dead end streets here, was not an option. If you've downloaded my map of Arnhem, you'll notice that those roads are there. In my readme file for my scenario, which, at this point will be two human players only, for reasons hit on in another thread, I address this issue. I state that units, such as Graebner's, crossing the bridge cannot exit the bridge by these roads. Units proceeding "under" the bridge cannot get onto the bridge via these roads. Nor can they fire on, or be fired upon by, units from an intersecting hex, that they could not logically see from a lower line of sight (since they are in reality at ground level, not level 10). I know, I know.... shades of ASL rules, but the other option is just not an option.

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- 11/28/2000 4:07:00 AM

edgar

Posts: 16
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Nijmegen, the Netherlands
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by David boutwell: Many of the attacks made on the Arnhem Bridge perimeter by armor proceeded down streets that ran under the bridge. Therefore, taking the traditional route for this map, having dead end streets here, was not an option. If you've downloaded my map of Arnhem, you'll notice that those roads are there. In my readme file for my scenario, which, at this point will be two human players only, for reasons hit on in another thread, I address this issue. I state that units, such as Graebner's, crossing the bridge cannot exit the bridge by these roads. Units proceeding "under" the bridge cannot get onto the bridge via these roads. Nor can they fire on, or be fired upon by, units from an intersecting hex, that they could not logically see from a lower line of sight (since they are in reality at ground level, not level 10). I know, I know.... shades of ASL rules, but the other option is just not an option.

Thanks David, were can I download your map of Arnhem? Greetings Edgar ps. Wild Bill and Dave, thanks for answering my question.

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- 11/28/2000 9:36:00 AM

David boutwell

Posts: 353
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From: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
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Edgar, I've posted my map to the SP Arsenal mapcase and Tankhead's support site. I made a few changes to the map since I posted it. The bridge ramp was too tall, and the Brits couldn't fire at vehicles coming over the bridge, so I lowered it to 10. I also extended the raised railroad bed in western Arnhem almost to the railway junction, as further research indicated theat there were two railroad underpasses, not just the one at Oosterbeek Laag Station. I'll be finishing my first scneario for this map as soon as possible. Then, I'll need to solicit some testers for it. How can I get your Nijmegan map?

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- 11/28/2000 10:58:00 AM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
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I just downloaded and checked your latest version, David. This is a fantastic map, my friend. Your attention to detail is worthy of much praise. It is a real work of art. Congratulations! Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Wild Bill Wilder
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- 11/29/2000 6:06:00 AM

edgar

Posts: 16
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Nijmegen, the Netherlands
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by David boutwell: Edgar, I've posted my map to the SP Arsenal mapcase and Tankhead's support site. I made a few changes to the map since I posted it. The bridge ramp was too tall, and the Brits couldn't fire at vehicles coming over the bridge, so I lowered it to 10. I also extended the raised railroad bed in western Arnhem almost to the railway junction, as further research indicated theat there were two railroad underpasses, not just the one at Oosterbeek Laag Station. I'll be finishing my first scneario for this map as soon as possible. Then, I'll need to solicit some testers for it. How can I get your Nijmegan map?

Hi David, I just downloaded your map of Arnhem and I must say I'm very impressed. It must have taken you lots of time to do proper research and to make this map. Excellent work! There are even some things in your map that were surprising to me. Like the harbour, I didn't know that it did exist. Because when you visit Arnhem nowadays it's not there. I guess the filled it up after the war and it's now the area where I park my car when I go shopping in Arnhem. As far as I can see you have got most details right. A very nice detail is how you worked on the ship-bridge, it is exactly as you can see on the aerial photo's they made during the fighting in September 1944. Also the way you took in consideration the different levels of height (for example near the St Elisabeth Hospital) is quit accurate. However there is a minor detail you might have an other look at. You have laid tracks the trolley-busses, but as you might know they do not need tracks. Although they need an overheadline and this what you were tying to simulate. As for the map I am making of Nijmegen, I am still working on it. I must say it takes a lot of time. My original plan was to make a map that is as exact as possible. To achieve this I scanned a city map of Nijmegen and then laid a grid of hexes (in the right scale) over it. After that I printed this cityplan with the hexes on it. Now I using it to build my map. But here is were I was confronted with the limitations of map-editing in SPWAW. It is not possible to connect the streets in right angle, there are only 8 different angles available. This means that at some points in the map there are major distortions in the layout of the streets. The largest distortion I have got is that the railroad and railroad-bridge has shifted 200 meters (= 4 hexes) to the west. That is of course a pity, but can't be helped. An other problem I have encountered is that large buildings like churches take to much space on a map. Like the church in my neighbourhood ( that keeps me from sleeping on a Sunday morning. Damn bells!), it will not fit between the streets that I have made. An other problem is that I can not get the angle right of these large buildings. Further more it is very difficult to get the heights the terrain exact. The heights that are available are to limited. I must say that this is much better in the latest SPWW2-version (for SP2 or SP3; dos-version). Maybe it's a good idea to have more heights available this in the next SPWAW-version. Anyway there still a lot of work to do, so it will take a while before I am finished. When it is finished I will let this known at the SPWAW-forum. Edgar Driesen Nijmegen, the Netherlands ------------------

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- 11/29/2000 8:19:00 AM

David boutwell

Posts: 353
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From: Haymarket, Virginia, USA
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Thanks, Edgar and wild Bill, for your appreciation of my hard work. Especially from someone like you, Edgar, who obviously lives right down the road! That's like me telling someone from the Netherlands that their map of the Alamo is very accurate (I now live in Virginia, but I'm a born and raised Texan). I was mentioning in a thread, I believe, that I've even talked to the son-in-law of one of the men of Grayburn's platoon of Frost's battalion. Grayburn's men were some of the few Brits that actually got onto the bridge, before they were shot up by the MG 42 in the pillbox. He has an extensive record of personal interviews with 2nd Battalion veterans. Heck, he sent me a copy of a picture of his father in law sitting with Frost while he autographed his book, "A Jump Too Many". Hopefully, I'll be able to use the large number of interviews that he sent me to make my upcoming scenario as good as possible. Anyway, yes, there was a small harbor that was filled in to build the new bridge where the pontoon bridge was. As for the elevations, I had to use several different sources to find what was anything close to what is correct, I know that the land southwest of Den Brink has some elevation change, but I didn't have a map with enough detail to deal with it. I know that the land slopes up from the river to the railroad cut. "A Tour of the Arnhem Battlefield" by Waddy, has an accompanying topo. map, which I thought I had ordered. But, it didn't come with the book for some reason. I do still want to get it, though. Concerning the trolley tracks...I added them because they were present in one, if not both, of the Advanced Squad Leader modules on the this scenario. Unfortunately, I have not personally been there, so I had to rely on what may well be incorrect info. Then again, like you say, they might have been showing tracks to represent where the trolleys ran. You are obviously making your Nijmegan map from a first person standpoint, and there is no better authority than that! I used Mapquest correlated to aerial photos to do much of my map. Again, I thank you for you positive feedback, and if you have any other pointers, please let me know. If it can be fixed, it will be... good luck on your map. If I can help in any way, fell free to contact me. Dave Boutwell

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- 12/1/2000 4:30:00 AM

Fabs

Posts: 444
Joined: 6/5/2000
From: London, U.K.
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Dave and Edgar, reading your posts touched a nerve with me. I love making maps, and I like to try to be as accurate as possible when reproducing historical maps. Unfortunately, this is very difficuult if not inmpossible to do for engagements in towns and bocage, because the scale of the hexes and the hexagonal grid mean that you just can't reproduce these types of terrain accurately. A map scale of 20 meters per hex would be easier, with the ability to do 90deg angles. This will never be possible in SPWAW, so we happily live with abstractions, for sake of enjoying the game. Another beef of mine is the famous elevations question, in terms of the numbers of levels available, the difference in height between levels, the absence of a multi-level dimension for buildings (and subterranean features - remember sewer movement in SL?-), the height of certain terrain features (water, gullies, streams etc.). None of these problems will be fixed in SPWAW, but I hope that if Matrix ever develop a brand new game designed to take the SPWAW concept forward they find ways to incorporate these features in the new design. In the mean time, I have not wanted to make a number of maps that i would otherwise worked on because, as soon as the new game comes out, I would have to do them again.

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