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JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods?

 
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JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 5/31/2010 10:49:18 PM   
osiris_slith

 

Posts: 240
Joined: 1/5/2007
Status: offline 		Hi All

Sooner or later this issue will have to be discussed so maybe now is the time to do it.

Firstly-I do appreciate all the work done by Jason and others for the modifications and everything else. I dont know how you guys do it but its great!

Now to the less happy part and this has more to with Matrix:

I really dont understand the thinking by Matrix when it comes to JTCS, SPWAW and OAOW. A small company Shrapnel Games recently upgraded SPWAW and OAW to WinSPWAW and Win MBT. The games are superb they need some tweeks to the sound and graphics are great. That company collected a $100+ from me when I bought both of the games. With some foresight on part of Matrix it would make sense to upgrade the old games. If Matrix would refurbish and rebuild JTCS I would gladly give them $200 for it!!!! I just dont see that kind of forward thinking by Matrix.

Instead they produce Panzer Command Kharkov which is a complete waste of time (and my money) or strategic level games (because I really want to play economics and politics when Im invading Russia or conquering Europe) maybe its time for Matrix to either give up John Tillers, SPWAW, OAOW and give it to company who will refurbish and rebuild those games.

I still cant play Kharkov and I dont see what the big hoopla about it was since the graphics are sub par (compared to JTCS and SPWAW, Panzer Command Kharkov graphics just plain suck not to mention boring and tedious to play!!! and its suppose to be a brand new game) If thats what Matrix is producing than the future is looking a little cloudy

In the past 3 years other then SPWAW JTCS and OAOW I have not found a single game by Matrix that I would consider buying after my experience with Panzer Command Kharkov.

These are easy to play game and easy to learn by all ages. Add the eye candy for graphics re-work the engine..and yes we will have to wait but why not start it now rather than later?



Rene

Post #: 1
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/1/2010 2:51:24 AM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline

JTCS has been rebuilt. JTCS has New Scenarios, completely re-done OOBs, numerous new countries, New utilities, full windows compatibility. Sounds exactly what the Camo guys did to WinSPWW2/MBT to me. Graphics don't need tweaking as they already pretty good compared to most wargames and since the game already has variable resolution engine, there is no need to work on resolutions and scaling. In it's current state, JTCS is a completely new game compared to the originals. All JTCS needs is the planned AI updates to work with the new units and this game would be almost perfect. I don't know about you, JTCS is WAY more than just a patch over the originals.

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(in reply to osiris_slith)
Post #: 2
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/2/2010 1:57:40 AM   
R_TEAM


Posts: 117
Joined: 8/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Hi,

mhhhh ...
IF the actual JTCS only bunch of patches for the Telonsoft orginal .... NO.
If the actual Game perfect with the planed AI update ........... NO (Sorry ..)
It fails in follow points :
Run in self settet settings for the screen resolution like all modern games .........
Have JTCS-UnitViewer + scenario selector INTEGRATET in the game ....
-this only the most important points that i can imagine ...
more for the distant future would be a new rendering engine with not an simply isometric view but an full 3D high-realistic view of the battlefield (the 2D views nearly perfect and dont need big changes...) like in SteelBeastPro (who it is rendered in an realtime game - in an non realtime game the rendering can be much better...).

Regards
R_TEAM


_____________________________


(in reply to V22 Osprey)
Post #: 3
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/2/2010 3:57:27 AM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline 		SPWAW and SPWW2 are not being upgraded by Shrapnel Games.  They are being upgraded by Camo which, to my understanding, is a third party dev who are making money on the sales.  Matrix doesn't have anything like that for the Campaign Series.  I believe Jason is a volunteer and I know some others here for other games like Harpoon are as well.  All things considered I think they're doing a great job.

(in reply to R_TEAM)
Post #: 4
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/2/2010 10:27:25 AM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		Osiris has a good point about graphic improvements.
I'm not so sure about what engine changes he wants.

I do not use the unit viewer and do not see it as such a great asset that R_TEAM seems to believe. Nor do I believe true 3-D graphics are called for. It was what made Panzer General a nightmare to play, for me. Though, I agree with R_TEAM that the "scenario selecter" would beneficial.

Just my .02

RR


_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to rich12545)
Post #: 5
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/2/2010 5:22:13 PM   
Miamieagle

 

Posts: 173
Joined: 10/26/2007
Status: offline 		All this game needs is a improvement in the graphics where they could bee a bit more three dimentional and improvement in it speed and when setting up the Battlefield. Not when when units make contact with each other in the Battlefield. At that stage the game speed is fine!

I"am happy with the development done by Jason and his group!


< Message edited by Miamieagle -- 6/2/2010 5:24:52 PM >

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 6
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/2/2010 5:31:04 PM   
Miamieagle

 

Posts: 173
Joined: 10/26/2007
Status: offline 		I would also like to see more destrutable infrastructures like Buildings and bridges when hit by Bombs and shells.

(in reply to Miamieagle)
Post #: 7
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/2/2010 6:40:15 PM   
kool_kat


Posts: 558
Joined: 7/7/2008
From: Clarksville, VA.
Status: offline 		Gents:

IMO, 3D graphics and other "eye candy" like more destructable buildings / hexes are not needed. Why introduce more system requirements?

Fundamentally, the CS game engine is sound... and has stood the test of time?

However, there is room for improvement in the following "top of mind" areas (maybe others?): Extreme Assault, ammunition supply, artillery, Variable Visibility, Banzai)

Again... some "tinkering" around the edges is warranted... but not a complete rebuild.

_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

(in reply to Miamieagle)
Post #: 8
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/3/2010 5:55:33 AM   
osiris_slith

 

Posts: 240
Joined: 1/5/2007
Status: offline 		HI

For me personally anyway its about eye candy..lets face it this is a great game but if you want more people to enjoy then the graphics have to move out of the 1990s and into the 21st century..if it means more system requirements well thats a moot point anyway. Whether you run Windows or Mac they are all system hogs anyway so u need a pretty decent computer just to run those any way and memory is cheap.

Mwest has point as well in that there needs to be some tinkering with the various elements such as supply, ammunition and so on. Id rather have the unit viewer tossed in return for more eye candy. I bought Fields of Thunder and when u see the graphics u cant help but wonder what those graphics would look like on JTCS. Even in SPWAW the hills are more rounded instead of the block hills in JTCS..even that change would smooth the appaearence of the terrain out and make it look a lot better. The colours are ok but I would think deeper and richer colours would be a lot nicer..for example I find the soft ground setting far more appealing and easier on the eyes cause its a deeper shade of green...looks way cooler than the very bland almost yellow setting on dry conditions.


Rene

(in reply to kool_kat)
Post #: 9
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/3/2010 5:09:11 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		The beauty of the Campaign Series is that you can modify all of the graphics to your hearts content.

Feel like changing the trees? Open up the tree related BMP's and change them how you'd prefer.

Feel like changing the colour of the ground? Open up the ground related BMP's and change them how you'd prefer.

Feel like changing the unit graphics for something more "realistic". Feel free!

You have the power to make it look how you want.

Jason Petho

< Message edited by Jason Petho -- 6/3/2010 5:38:11 PM >

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(in reply to osiris_slith)
Post #: 10
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/3/2010 5:33:51 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		Priceless!
Simply priceless!

RR

_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 11
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/4/2010 12:17:44 AM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

Posts: 1152
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Los Osos, CA
Status: offline 		Sadly, I agree with you Rene...

The more I read and learn about actual WWII battles and tactics, the more painfully obvious it becomes that this old engine only offers a very, very basic portrayal of WWII combat....

Love the scale, and am surprised more games are not made using platoon-sized units.....all I can think of are this one and Steel Panthers III.

Guess I'm getting more demanding as I enter middle-age....but I'll always have the memories and it'll take unknown thousands of hours before some other game supplants all the time I've enjoyed with this one.

with regards,
ChadG

(in reply to osiris_slith)
Post #: 12
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/4/2010 6:32:47 AM   
osiris_slith

 

Posts: 240
Joined: 1/5/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Jason

Its fairly presumptious for you to assume that people here can muck around with the game graphics with out screwing the whole game up when the Matrix Graphics team for JTCS cant even get it right..Maybe check out the screwed up Panzer IV platoon with the misaligned borders for starters and the myriad of other graphics errors as well. Please include instructions in the new manual a section on how to enhance the graphics in JTCS version 1.05 comes out...than that will indeed be price less than we can do it ourselves and makes the repairs as well and then we can e-mail you the corrected files.

Rene

(in reply to TAIL GUNNER)
Post #: 13
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/4/2010 10:02:41 AM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		ChadG,

All the years, and hundreds of dollars later, I have yet to find a replacement for this grand old game.
I've looked.

I'd be happy with a little "eye candy" upgrade. A complete refit scares the heck out of me. Especially after the version 1.03 fiasco.

RR

_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to TAIL GUNNER)
Post #: 14
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/4/2010 10:05:33 AM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		Rene,

Did you read Jason's response to your post?
Please go back and read it again. You argue apples to oranges?

Go make your grass look pretty. The AI will appreciate it.

RR

_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to osiris_slith)
Post #: 15
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/4/2010 10:30:04 AM   
kool_kat


Posts: 558
Joined: 7/7/2008
From: Clarksville, VA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: osiris

HI

For me personally anyway its about eye candy..lets face it this is a great game but if you want more people to enjoy then the graphics have to move out of the 1990s and into the 21st century..if it means more system requirements well thats a moot point anyway. Whether you run Windows or Mac they are all system hogs anyway so u need a pretty decent computer just to run those any way and memory is cheap.

Rene


A graphics "upgrade" would necessitate a "new" game engine... and a whole myrid of unforseen "challenges" and "issues" that would surround it. More system requirements would be the least of our problems!

I wonder if the folks who regularly post their suggestions for CS "improvements" ... really understand the true value of CS... and what is at risk by the introduction of proposed whole scale changes like more "eye candy?"

_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

(in reply to osiris_slith)
Post #: 16
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/5/2010 8:48:30 AM   
osiris_slith

 

Posts: 240
Joined: 1/5/2007
Status: offline 		HI

If the rebuild cant be done (due to technical stuff) than its a non-issue. However there is a difference between cant be done and wont be done and based on what I see from Matrix and what some others have stated in different forums the focus at Matrix is more on the wont be done.....this has nothing to do with Jason or the team which turns out the patches...this is about Matrix period.

Im quite happy to cough the money up for a new look on JTCS...however if as a group we keep on contradicting each other on the pros and cons of obvious things that need upgrading like the graphics or making adjustments to the AI than if I were Matrix I wont bother with a rebuild because it seems most of the people who play this game just dont care...so why should they.

We as the consumer who use this product have it within us to effect change for the better and send a message to the company if you rebuild we will pay. Otherwise just go into the Matrix Products site and u can see all the discontinued titles in their and some of them are pretty recent. SPWAW and OAOW are already toast if you bother to read their forums..what makes you think this game wont be tossed by Matrix as well? You might get a few more patches but thats about it.

I dont see how one can argue that new graphics for this game are a bad idea..wake up the graphics are from the 1990s thats almost 20 years ago..

Rene

(in reply to kool_kat)
Post #: 17
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/5/2010 11:51:20 AM   
kool_kat


Posts: 558
Joined: 7/7/2008
From: Clarksville, VA.
Status: offline 		IMO, the single most vital "upgrade" Matrix & Co. could perform on JTCS would be an AI overhaul.

Currently... HAL acts like it has had a frontal lobotomy... HQs blindly wandering the battlefield... leaders "marking time" by moving back and forth between adjacent hexes... popping smoke and using up air strikes in the first turns of a game... converging on victory hexes and forsaking front line defense... etc.

An improved AI would be an asset to CS! Players versus AI would experience improved (and more fun?) game play in both the stand alone scenarios and linked campaigns... scenario designers could more effectively "test" their designs... and CS would become a more commercially marketable software product for new players.

And yes, in between waiting on a PBeM turn to arrive in my email inbox... I'll sometimes fire up a scenario and play a few turns versus HAL. Unfortunately, it quickly becomes apparent why I much prefer H2H versus AI play!

Hopefully, when HAL gets that scheduled "brain transplant"... most likely in 1-2 years based on what I have read here on the Matrix Forums... we can enjoy a much better experience against the AI.

_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

(in reply to osiris_slith)
Post #: 18
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/5/2010 2:29:56 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		Funny thing Rene, is that CS was unsupported for more years than it was supported by the company(ies) that owned it.

What massive remake would be worth the cost and effort?
If current upgrades would be done on a shorter basis it would keep the interest up?
Waiting years or months for massive upgrades does take away from the interest and player support. But, the download queue has limitation also?

Modern Wars, in all it's volumes, is where the additional money and support should come for the company? I'm all for Matrix making money on new releases. Heck, that is what they are in business for?
If they drop product for lack of support, interest, or income that is their prerogative?
If there are only a few players that support JTCS why should it be sustained?

JTCS should have smaller upgrades and fixes that could be downloaded without being a massive overhaul. Though, Matrix could keep an "up to date" massive compilation overhaul download available for the newer owners of the product, or for those who have suffered a computer crash (or bought a new one and reloaded).

The company continuously asking for repurchase will kill the product altogether.
Members who continuously ask for "changes", to satisfy their personal interest, that the company deems unfit to pursue will push the company to stop supporting the game?

RR




_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to kool_kat)
Post #: 19
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/5/2010 7:04:39 PM   
Crossroads


Posts: 17372
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline 		Modern Wars is coming out with a storm soon... I am wondering whether the various MW implementation run with the same engine, by using different unit data - and scenarios of course ???

If so, I am wondering whether we can expect the JTCS series to be updated to run with the MW engine.

That would be great news, but I do not know if it's possible or not?

For the time being, I am actually quite happy with how JTCS is currently implemented. AI obviously needs some beefing up, but that's a major uphaul I am sure? There's always PBEM for those requiring a truly formidable opponent.

I am from the PB/PL generation. For my ears, to some extent the word "realism" together with "JTCS" sounds like a foul word ;)

- Petri

< Message edited by Crossroads -- 6/5/2010 7:06:29 PM >

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 20
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/6/2010 12:07:05 AM   
Geomitrak


Posts: 179
Joined: 6/11/2007
From: Cambridge, UK
Status: offline 		I'm sure Jason said there was a long-term intention to revamp the engine...can't remember the thread, and I've tried looking for it. Anyway, come the day, I'm sure there will be a consultation period where we all get to have some sort of input.

Scaleable hexes would be my request, even it was just presets such as 50m, 100m, 150m, 200m and the present default 250m.

Regards

Paul

_____________________________


(in reply to Crossroads)
Post #: 21
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/6/2010 3:25:57 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		No, not scale-able hexes!
Yikes!  Do that in a different game or play Tiller's Panzer Campaigns Series or Squad Battles for the smaller scale ... or TOAW for a different scale?

RR


< Message edited by MrRoadrunner -- 6/6/2010 7:07:54 PM >

_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to Geomitrak)
Post #: 22
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/8/2010 8:44:59 PM   
dgk196

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 3/21/2006
Status: offline 		So, either a call for the evolutionary (current situation) or the revolutionary, a 'remake' of the original? Well, maybe an assessment of what exists as compared to what would be desired in a 'new' version? I mean, wouldn't you need to have some specific changes / additions in mind? So, what would 'they' be? I could think of a few things....... the ability to create new unit types and the graphics to go along with them. Maybe at least on the 2-D level. Also the ability to 'create' new terrain types and the effects related to them as regards movement / combat and so on.

Also, the ability to modify the Combat Results Table or use different 'tables' for different 'forces', in the same game. That is develop a CRT for a 'country' or time frame, to be used in a specific scenario. In short, make the units, graphics and functions so that they can be modded as desired, without using a 'second program' to achieve the results.

How about the ability to use scanned maps or images?

Dennis

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 23
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/9/2010 11:00:39 AM   
bshirt7

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 12/27/2009
Status: offline 		Oh, I'll be ordering JTCS in the next couple of days (as soon as I can figure out where to wire the $$).

Believe me, I've played boatloads of war games (Hoi1, Hoi2, 2nd Front, WIR, CivI-IV, etc) and with the "one" exception of the superb CMBB none of them holds a candle to Talonsoft's EFII, much less Matrix's upgraded version.

Eye candy is great and a buffed up AI is even better. But even Talonsoft's AI had several scenario's that could give you an extreme challenge and their graphics looked ok to me. The scale of the game is simply awesome. I'm just "very" grateful Jason and Matrix gave the old lady a good face lift with more goodies booked for the future.

I think it's also appropriate to give a heartfelt "thanks" to Talensoft for the 100's of hours of pleasure. Whatever happened to them I don't know but I wish them well.

(in reply to dgk196)
Post #: 24
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/9/2010 8:41:35 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dgk196

So, either a call for the evolutionary (current situation) or the revolutionary, a 'remake' of the original? Well, maybe an assessment of what exists as compared to what would be desired in a 'new' version? I mean, wouldn't you need to have some specific changes / additions in mind? So, what would 'they' be? I could think of a few things....... the ability to create new unit types and the graphics to go along with them. Maybe at least on the 2-D level. Also the ability to 'create' new terrain types and the effects related to them as regards movement / combat and so on.

Also, the ability to modify the Combat Results Table or use different 'tables' for different 'forces', in the same game. That is develop a CRT for a 'country' or time frame, to be used in a specific scenario. In short, make the units, graphics and functions so that they can be modded as desired, without using a 'second program' to achieve the results.

How about the ability to use scanned maps or images?

Dennis



The only comment I liked was the last question.

I would like neither revolution or evolution. Both are wrong for the game. Either can be what Modern Wars is?

I'd like restoration. Better graphics along with a new AI.

Change the CRT? What then happens to scale?

I do not want someone having the capacity to change the physical properties of the units. I like that Jason and crew encrypted that part.
You can mod terrain to your hearts content, as Jason mentioned above?

RR

_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to dgk196)
Post #: 25
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/9/2010 9:51:29 PM   
tide1527


Posts: 24
Joined: 3/6/2009
Status: offline 		Ed I know this is not the forum but I noticed you changed your signature. You read Edmund Burke ?

Gary

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 26
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/9/2010 11:04:59 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		Gary,

Some may not believe it but I read quite a few.

Lately the words of the "elders" make more sense then the words of the current leaders and philosophers.

I've even re-read Thomas Payne's Common Sense and the Rights of Man.
At the moment I am deep into the Federalist Papers.
My son and I are studying The Constitution.
It's been enlightening. To say the least.

I can even say I have been re-reading The Bible.

Ed



_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to tide1527)
Post #: 27
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/10/2010 10:00:00 PM   
tide1527


Posts: 24
Joined: 3/6/2009
Status: offline 		All important documents for sure. My son carries the pocket Constitution that I gave to him. He's used it to debate a couple of times The Federalist Papers are excellent. If you never read De Tocqueville his book Democracy In America is very good.

Gary

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 28
RE: JTCS-Time for a rebuild instead of patches and mods? - 6/10/2010 11:34:33 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		All well and good Gary.
Also, good for your son!

I am currently reading George Washington's Sacred Fire. 1200 pages including 200 pages of footnotes.

I have De Tocqueville on my list. After I finish The 5000 Year Leap.

Ed

(in reply to tide1527)
Post #: 29
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