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RE: East Front book talk - 5/4/2010 8:30:09 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		Mantill. Thx for the clarification. Was wondering because he surrendered in 1945 to the British Army. I only met him because he brought his watch to get repaired by me and when I noticed that it was a wehrmacht's watch we got talking where he got it from. He then came by to visit me at work for small talks.

I should think he will be one of the few remaining vets from his unit for the VE celebrations. At 94 he is quite ill.

Mat

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Post #: 61
RE: East Front book talk - 5/5/2010 3:23:39 PM   
colberki

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 6/16/2007
Status: offline 		Your passionate rebuttal of my point of view suggests to me that you are not a detached observer on this topic. But kudos to Berkut for his more reasoned rejection of my view but nevertheless has room for differing views. For me, the accounts dont need to be balanced in themselves; there is no shortage of authors with a different slant. I like to hear it from the SS or German point of view. Paul Carrell is great reading. Feels like a great adventure admidst all the killings and dying on both sides. I wish Genghis Khan had written his memoirs - what was he thinking when he annnilihated 30 percent of the Chinese in a few years to the levelling of Baghdad.

All big powers in their time have been brutal. There is no such thing as a righteous power. Such thinking leads to crusades and jihads and more killings. The Nazis were especially so in Eastern Europe to the Jews, Poles, Russians etc. The British and their European descendants slaughtered the North American Indians and did their share of pillaging and robbery in India, China and elsewhere. Yes, the Nazis are a more recent event. Modern Russia and ocassionally China resort to brutal tactics hold down restive regions. And throughout European history, Europeans have butchered their neighbours. Not every country is lucky like the USA, Canada, Australia and NZ. should know it as a naturalised Australian. My country expects all immigrants to leave behind the old world quarrels and prejudicies. Dont bring the troubles of Ireland, Europe, Middle East and Asia. We deport people who dont abide by our laws where possible.

This is a great forum because of all of us. We are one in our love for Gary Grisgby's eastern front wargames. Lets enjoy our shared interest and intellect and respect each other.

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Post #: 62
RE: East Front book talk - 5/5/2010 7:46:22 PM   
Banzan

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 3/13/2010
From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: colberki
Feels like a great adventure admidst all the killings and dying on both sides.


This acutally is a part of the problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: colberki
All big powers in their time have been brutal.


While i agree with you about most historial empires were being brutal, there is quite a difference between "brutal" and "industrial genocide".


Well, and forums are always about discussion, and not always you will find a consensus.

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Post #: 63
RE: East Front book talk - 5/6/2010 1:59:24 PM   
Theng

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 12/13/2002
Status: offline 		Almost all larger historical empires engaged in "industrial genocide" in relation to their economic development. The Germans did it later in the industrial development, hence on a larger scale. By all means, the Germans don't have a monopoly on the drive to kill as many of the people they don't like as possible in as short of a time as possible. It had been done before and done afterwards. Here is an early example of "alleged" bio-warfare in the 18th century.

http://academic.udayton.edu/health/syllabi/bioterrorism/00intro02.htm

NB: Other historians think it was all by accident that the Indians were infected. In any case, it was a fortunate coincidence for the victors that they were infected right at that time and most convenient, at least for the victors.

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Post #: 64
RE: East Front book talk - 5/7/2010 4:38:00 PM   
bush

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 10/30/2007
From: san jose, ca
Status: offline 		I read the Fugat book several years ago and thought it was a good one also.

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Post #: 65
RE: East Front book talk - 5/10/2010 9:13:43 AM   
Muzrub


Posts: 1780
Joined: 2/23/2001
From: Australia, Queensland, Gold coast
Status: offline 		Hitler and His Generals: Military Conferences 1942-1945
The military conferences that Hitler had twice daily with his staff, where he directed the war, were transcribed by stenographers from 1942 to 1945 in the bunker. These authentic documents are the only record kept by the Germans of their highest military decisions at the critical moment when the war turned against them.


Well worth a purchase.



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Post #: 66
RE: East Front book talk - 5/11/2010 3:01:29 PM   
bush

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 10/30/2007
From: san jose, ca
Status: offline 		Just curious - why is Glantz being given so much love? Not trying to stir up the sh&& pot, just wondering about his bona fides.

Thanks,

Mike

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Post #: 67
RE: East Front book talk - 5/11/2010 3:33:20 PM   
Montbrun


Posts: 1498
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bushpsu

Just curious - why is Glantz being given so much love? Not trying to stir up the sh&& pot, just wondering about his bona fides.

Thanks,

Mike


He's the only westerner to tap the Soviet military archives on any kind of scale. He's a prolific writer, and, obviously, concentrates on the eastern front. His books are excellent reads, and he's ex-military. He extrapolates information that we normally wouldn't see in the English language.

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Post #: 68
RE: East Front book talk - 5/11/2010 7:22:16 PM   
von Shagmeister


Posts: 1273
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Dromahane, Ireland
Status: offline 		Col. Glantz is the founder and former director of the US Army's Foreign Military Studies Office. He really knows his stuff, his books give an insight not normally available, especially from the Soviet side.

Best Regards

von Shagmeister

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Post #: 69
RE: East Front book talk - 5/12/2010 4:46:21 PM   
Ron

 

Posts: 506
Joined: 6/6/2002
Status: offline 		Glantz is a prolific writer and an important source of information on the eastern front, no question. However, I think you are fooling yourself to think he has a 'lock' on what actually happened. It is hardly surprising, too many researchers and historians set out to prove a point and distort perspective to do so - even at the original source material, and the Soviet Union was not exactly the paradigm of espousing the 'truth' during its existence. It's a bitter pill to swallow when sources turn out to be questionable, but one is wiser after the 'discovery'.

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Post #: 70
RE: East Front book talk - 5/13/2010 6:56:45 PM   
malfid

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 3/20/2010
Status: offline
quote:

even at the original source material, and the Soviet Union was not exactly the paradigm of espousing the 'truth' during its existence. It's a bitter pill to swallow when sources turn out to be questionable, but one is wiser after the 'discovery'.


Do you have any examples of, say, archival material meant for internal consumption being falsified? If so, I would request that you post them, so that we will all be 'wiser after the discovery'.

quote:

even at the original source material, and the Soviet Union was not exactly the paradigm of espousing the 'truth' during its existence.


To whom, exactly?

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Post #: 71
RE: East Front book talk - 5/13/2010 8:56:00 PM   
von Shagmeister


Posts: 1273
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Dromahane, Ireland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

...even at the original source material, and the Soviet Union was not exactly the paradigm of espousing the 'truth' during its existence. ...



From what I have heard and read from a number of researchers (though I have no personal experience) the archive material from the likes of the TsAMO is extremely accurate, albeit as the Soviets collected and perceived it and as Malfid alludes to the material is for internal (state) consumption and not the propaganda fiary tales propogated during and after the war that have been accepted as fact by many writers.

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Post #: 72
RE: East Front book talk - 5/14/2010 7:47:17 PM   
cantona2


Posts: 3749
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		Started reading the first voulme of Glantz's Stalingrad trilogy last night. Having read most his other books I know I'll be in for a long ahrd slog but excellent read as well

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Post #: 73
RE: East Front book talk - 5/14/2010 7:49:28 PM   
cantona2


Posts: 3749
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bushpsu

Just curious - why is Glantz being given so much love? Not trying to stir up the sh&& pot, just wondering about his bona fides.

Thanks,

Mike


Uses Soviet archives as much as German/Western ones and rights one hell of a military history book. His book on Kursk is an example of how much detail and research he does. it makes for heavy reading sometimes but any student of the Ost Front will need Glantz in his library

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Post #: 74
RE: East Front book talk - 5/15/2010 9:54:29 PM   
FM WarB

 

Posts: 292
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline 		I respect Glanz' research, and like his volumes that have good oobs (Before Stalingrad, Kursk). But his bland writing style, basically listing units and places, which you cannot find on his poor maps make reading them and getting into the flow of the campaigns quite tedious.

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Post #: 75
RE: East Front book talk - 5/16/2010 8:24:13 PM   
MarcA


Posts: 1181
Joined: 3/2/2005
From: England
Status: offline 		For history to be interesting you need to concentrate on personalities and how they interact with events around them. That is not what Glantz is writing, he writes pure operational histories for those who want to understand which units were where and what they did. There is no denying it is dry stuff. If you want something more interesting you want to aim for something like Anthony Beevors Stalingrad, which is presented in more story like fashion.

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Post #: 76
RE: East Front book talk - 5/16/2010 8:32:35 PM   
Zemke


Posts: 642
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		A new book to come out which is very good, but expensive, Operation Barbarossa and Germany's Defeat in the East, by David Stahel published as part of Cambridge Military Histories, copyright 2009

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Post #: 77
RE: East Front book talk - 6/2/2010 5:22:14 PM   
TargAK

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 4/5/2010
Status: offline 		I am reading Last victory in Russia about the battle of Kharkov 1943 by Nipe. Only 30 pages into it so no opinion yet.

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Victory-Russia-SS-Panzerkorps-Counteroffensive/dp/0764311867

I also recommend Germany and the Second world war V4 book. Although pricey it is very detailed account of Germany's build up and fight on the Eastern front up until the end of 1941.

The map book that comes with it is simply amazing!

http://www.amazon.com/Germany-Second-World-War-Attack/dp/0198228864/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275495678&sr=1-1

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Post #: 78
RE: East Front book talk - 6/2/2010 6:17:23 PM   
zbig

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 3/3/2010
Status: offline 		What fustrates me about most military history books is inadaquate maps. It is hard to follow at times when a book mentions units and places but they are not on a map.

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Post #: 79
RE: East Front book talk - 6/2/2010 8:41:21 PM   
kfmiller41


Posts: 1063
Joined: 3/25/2003
From: Saint Marys, Ga
Status: offline 		I agree zbig, most books don't have decent maps that allow people who don't know the geography to follow along. As for Glantz I am in the middle of the second volume of his Stalingrad trilogy and although very detailed it is quite dry, it takes effort to read it, unlike some others that flow better. It is worth it for anyone who really want's the details bu just know what your in for.

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Post #: 80
RE: East Front book talk - 6/2/2010 8:54:32 PM   
Zemke


Posts: 642
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

A new book to come out which is very good, but expensive, Operation Barbarossa and Germany's Defeat in the East, by David Stahel published as part of Cambridge Military Histories, copyright 2009


I am about finished with this work, and frankly it is outstanding. It is a must read for the serious student of the Russian-German war. The book is very well written and is balanced and well thought out. I highly recommend it. I can see why it made the Cambridge Military Histories.

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Post #: 81
RE: East Front book talk - 7/1/2010 11:03:09 PM   
SNorth

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 1/2/2010
Status: offline 		Any interest in Eastern Front fiction out there? Just curious. I am a writer, but I haven't branched out very far from Science Fiction or Horror yet.

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Post #: 82
RE: East Front book talk - 7/2/2010 3:11:03 AM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stephenanorth

Any interest in Eastern Front fiction out there? Just curious. I am a writer, but I haven't branched out very far from Science Fiction or Horror yet.


Ofc it was another time, but since Paul Carrell has alrdy been mentioned.
The sales numbers of Sven Hassels books suggest that there at leased was an interest in the subject.

Not some thing i would read, but there could very well be an market for it Stephen.

Rasmus

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Post #: 83
RE: East Front book talk - 7/2/2010 4:19:05 AM   
SNorth

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 1/2/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks Rasmus. It seems like it would be a huge task. I did write one short story called Zomkrieg! that combined the Zombie genre with the Eastern Front. Haven't really had any feedback on that one.

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Post #: 84
RE: East Front book talk - 7/2/2010 9:17:36 PM   
MarcA


Posts: 1181
Joined: 3/2/2005
From: England
Status: offline 		One aspect of the war in the East is the air war. I found this set of books from Christer Bergstrom very readable and informative. It covers the whole war, though concentrates on four main events. It is biased a little towards the Germans but makes a valiant attempt at dealing with both sides.

Barbarossa

Stalingrad

Kursk

Berlin

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Post #: 85
RE: East Front book talk - 7/3/2010 3:10:17 AM   
SNorth

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 1/2/2010
Status: offline 		I've only read one account of the air war, and that was called 'Stuka' or maybe 'Stuka Pilot' (can't remember for sure, too many years have passed), by Hans Ulrich Rudel. It was interesting. Claimed over 500 tank kills, and I think he sank a Soviet cruiser. He may have been (once again not sure after all these years) the most 'highly decorated' German soldier of the war.


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Post #: 86
RE: East Front book talk - 7/3/2010 10:38:34 AM   
Burl

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 11/6/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stephenanorth

Thanks Rasmus. It seems like it would be a huge task. I did write one short story called Zomkrieg! that combined the Zombie genre with the Eastern Front. Haven't really had any feedback on that one.


you could write a short story about a guy who posts on wargame boards and collects plastic T-34s and plays paintball in fatigues. You could mention his pompous certainty that if moscow had fallen the soviet union would have gone down the tubes.

You could put a big red book by Glantz on his coffee table, and you could write about how Kiev in sept 41 wasn't stalins fault.

You might talk about food and how it tastes like hemmingway in the nic adams stories.

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Post #: 87
RE: East Front book talk - 7/3/2010 12:07:56 PM   
SNorth

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 1/2/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Burl


quote:

ORIGINAL: stephenanorth

Thanks Rasmus. It seems like it would be a huge task. I did write one short story called Zomkrieg! that combined the Zombie genre with the Eastern Front. Haven't really had any feedback on that one.


you could write a short story about a guy who posts on wargame boards and collects plastic T-34s and plays paintball in fatigues. You could mention his pompous certainty that if moscow had fallen the soviet union would have gone down the tubes.

You could put a big red book by Glantz on his coffee table, and you could write about how Kiev in sept 41 wasn't stalins fault.

You might talk about food and how it tastes like hemmingway in the nic adams stories.


Not sure whether you've heard of Carl Hiasson, but if you just included rampant, out of control capitalism and the war's damage to the environment, it might be a novel he'd write. Hmm, maybe I should explore this...

I'll actually speculate seriously now, but on Eastern Front movies. Not sure how many of you saw Enemy at the Gates, a movie about dueling snipers in Stalingrad. It could have been great, but wasn't. Cross of Iron was much better.

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Post #: 88
RE: East Front book talk - 7/3/2010 3:10:18 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		"Stalingrad" is also a much better movie than Enemy at the Gates.

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Post #: 89
RE: East Front book talk - 7/3/2010 10:42:54 PM   
MarcA


Posts: 1181
Joined: 3/2/2005
From: England
Status: offline 		Stalingrad is a great movie, highly recommended

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Post #: 90
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