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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ?

 
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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/13/2010 2:35:08 PM   
jimh009

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline 		After reading through the two AAR's, I think the AI looks great right now. I can't wait to see it in it's Beta and then final version.

Also, for those complaining about the AI - do remember one thing. When it comes to tactics and strategy, humans aren't perfect either. :)

And it's those mistakes, by both the computer and human players, that can really make the game fun, challenging and wholly unpredictable.

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 91
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/13/2010 3:12:40 PM   
dazoline II


Posts: 400
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jimh009
Also, for those complaining about the AI - do remember one thing. When it comes to tactics and strategy, humans aren't perfect either. :)

And it's those mistakes, by both the computer and human players, that can really make the game fun, challenging and wholly unpredictable.


After reading WITP and AE forums for years and recently this one, that has got to be the best answer for any pbem only comment I've read.

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/13/2010 4:45:16 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		from my screen shots here, i wanted to look at something so, I let the turn run for a few turns with out me doing anything

the response from the AI was something, all of it's lines got massive, lots of reserves and layered 3 or more deep

part of what you see in our AARs and screen shots is, that we are putting a ton of Pressure on the AI

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Post #: 93
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/13/2010 5:09:44 PM   
Neal_MLC

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline 		This may have been said before but AIs are always going to be a "work in progress" and consequently tend to be expensive in both time and money. I would hope that 2x3 (3x2)games will always be tweaking their game AIs but I understand the constraints and hope that everyone else does too.

Keep up the good work on producing world class games. I use Matrix games as an example on how o do things right in the business classes I teach.



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Post #: 94
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/14/2010 11:23:09 AM   
Captain B


Posts: 386
Joined: 8/30/2009
From: Knoxville, Tennessee
Status: offline 		Pyle Driver (Jon?),

Thoroughly agree...do a lot of traveling on business....then do a lot of work at home...then, believe it or not, the wife wants time...so AI is often the best choice. It would not be fair to be engaged in a long email game where say I couldn't get back to the guy for three or four days.

So, all aspects of the game. AI. PBEM, hot-seat, are important and from the looks of things...it will all be very, very good...hopefully very very soon!


Rich B> (Captain B>

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Post #: 95
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/14/2010 8:35:37 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		I am just worried the AI will be too good for me.

What kind of difficulty settings will there be?

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Post #: 96
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/14/2010 8:47:04 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		Easy, Normal, Challenging Hard and Impossible.

I have played on Challenging and Hard, I tried Impossible once but had to surrender to Mr. AI ..., maybe in a month...


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Post #: 97
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/14/2010 8:53:28 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Theres 5 levels, I'm playing my AAR on 3. Level 2 is normal, level 1 is called easy and gives you perks...I have pressed Joel that normal should be 3, as I don't see anyone playing on 5 now...

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Post #: 98
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/14/2010 9:15:23 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		So there will be hope that I will survive a month on easy, be it as German or SU player.

Jon- will follow you in your AAR (great Work) would it be possible to do large maps ss more often so we can really see your flanking moves? (did not want to disturb the flow in your AAR)

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Post #: 99
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/15/2010 12:28:32 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

I play both PBEM and the AI. The reason I want a good AI is, with the AI I don't have to wait days for a return move to start my next turn. Its that simple...


PyleDriver,

This is why you must play 4 games against 4 different human pbem opponents - no down time :-)


Marquo

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Post #: 100
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/15/2010 12:33:25 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Theres 5 levels, I'm playing my AAR on 3. Level 2 is normal, level 1 is called easy and gives you perks...I have pressed Joel that normal should be 3, as I don't see anyone playing on 5 now...


I'll play you... no perks for either side

Marquo

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Post #: 101
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/15/2010 1:12:06 AM   
janh

 

Posts: 1216
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline 		This is a title that I am eying closely. I hope the AI will be dramatically improved to what has been out there, and will be dynamic instead of scripted (like so unfortunately in WITP-AE). Besides historic realism, this is the one major factor that is crucial for me for this type of game. Much more important that getting the 9999th detail in the TOCs correct, or adding the 272.millionth ship to the list...

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Post #: 102
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/17/2010 6:41:57 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

If you are expecting a Deep Blue quality AI that can beat the Garry Kasparov's of wargaming then you will probably be disappointed. 


I equally fear the day they incorporate morale into Chess...

Green Pawns, Veteran Bishops, Cowering Rooks.

Sounds like a Thai takeout meal.

(Hey Elmo3 are you the Elmo I know from gaming days gone past?
Cheers, Adam).

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Post #: 103
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/17/2010 11:30:37 AM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

...

(Hey Elmo3 are you the Elmo I know from gaming days gone past?
Cheers, Adam).


Yup, it's me Adam. Hope you are well.


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Post #: 104
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/17/2010 12:56:08 PM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline 		I'm very well

I'm really glad to hear it's you (I forgot but I think you told me so once some time ago - I need to keep better notes!) as I may need to ask you how to approach this game when its released.

It looks superb and I've tried to get into War Between the States but I think I've been chewing off more than I can handle at any one time? Maybe a "programmed" instruction or a careful veteran's eye might be just what I'll need to learn enough to jump in and get playing and then build on all the intricacies that these types of games pack in once I'm having fun.

And knowing you're involved with this one is all I need to know to say that this game will have integrity.

Keep well too mate,
Adam.

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Post #: 105
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/18/2010 12:22:21 AM   
FM WarB

 

Posts: 292
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline 		If the AI is good enough to give me a fight before I move on to PBEM, I will be happy. It looks like it will be that and more. Please make PBEM file transfer easy.

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Post #: 106
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/21/2010 8:09:32 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Judging from the AARs the AI looks astonishingly good. Possibly the best AI I've seen yet in a wargame.


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Post #: 107
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/21/2010 8:18:38 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		my current game




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Post #: 108
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/21/2010 8:19:43 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		my only chance is General Winter, and his younger Brother

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Post #: 109
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/22/2010 3:21:49 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		that drive in the south is nasty, I can't stop it, but it has overran it's supply line, so has slowed down by it self, so, it is trying to clean up his flanks

(that was a couple of turns back, he is now closing on Stalingrad)

so I am trying to do in the north what he is doing in the south, and trying to mess up as many rail lines as I can, as I try and build a rescue force




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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/22/2010 3:23:38 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		that is pretty much 4 Fronts that are shattered, defending Stalingrad, is another Front that pulled in all of the reserve armies

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Post #: 111
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/22/2010 3:24:26 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		but all is not dispair, only, if you get orders to report to the south !




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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 4/24/2010 4:24:18 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		well, not sure if the last couple of shots look good or bad, but since the start of this game, we have had a number of updates and changes (so that tends to screw up how the AI thinks)

but thought this was interesting, it seemed to take the AI a few turns, to see the trap that was about to spring, then reacted, but when it did, it did so massively, which, when it closed off the trap, it opened itself up for the 2nd trap I had planned, and now that it has seen it, it has again reacted

it is still in a bad way, but it is reacting and doing what it can, to lower his losses




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Post #: 113
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 6/12/2010 1:22:13 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		Round two of the AI debate.

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Post #: 114
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 6/12/2010 6:35:08 PM   
Theng

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 12/13/2002
Status: offline 		the debate is postponed until beta... even better judge the game when it is done rather than still half-baked as it is right now.

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Post #: 115
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 6/12/2010 6:54:26 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Guys the AI is ten times better already than WIR, and getting better. I ripped thur the AI in WIR. Yes were in alpha, and this subject should be tabled for a while...

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Post #: 116
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 6/12/2010 8:39:00 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		There will always come a point where a human being can outplay the AI. The most we can hope for is that such a point gets delayed reasonably.

Right now I remain supremely skeptical of the AIs ability to act strategically and prioritize reserves. It doesn't know how to refuse flanks or concentrate forces on truly important objectives. I'm not sure if it ever will. It is entirely too passive in terms of counterattacking encirclements and breaking out of pockets. Nor does it appear to understand how to identify the logistical weaknesses of the opponent's position and conduct raids to cut rail lines and such, even if that calls for sacrificing units. The AI plays a decent enough microgame, but this leaves it vulnerable to salami tactics.

I suspect it plays a better offensive game than a defensive one.

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Post #: 117
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 6/12/2010 9:21:53 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Flav, you get my first game after release. After I put you on your heels we will see how you move your reserves to counter...lol...As I said before the Germans have to go right at the Soviets in 42... However, they choose to turn there back to them...

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AWD Beta tester
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Post #: 118
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 6/12/2010 10:14:38 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		GAIA (Gary's AI Adversary) will do her best to satisfy you, but, like most women, she sometimes has a "headache".





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Post #: 119
RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 6/12/2010 10:39:45 PM   
Neal_MLC

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline 		No AI is perfect or be able to replace a human so I don't know what the big fuss is about.  One thing we tend to forget is that alot of the games are more or less scripted and therefore the AI doesn't have to deal with as many variables.  To my very limited knowledge WitE is not scripted so the amount of variables and possible reactions are truly infinite. As such it would take forever (literally) to program an AI that can deal with every situation that a human player could create.  After this game has been Alphaed and Betaed ad nauseum someone will still be able to cause the AI to fall into some sort of death spiral, but the AI will still be generally competent.  Personally I am not looking for or expecting any thing near perfection from an AI. I just want passable competence.  If one setting is too easy then I just turn the difficulty up a notch.  Simple really, and there is always PBEM.

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