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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 6/30/2010 11:58:38 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

quote:

Perhasp you were around when fighting was made illegal in hockey, and the sport nearly failed becasue there was nothing to stop players from using their sticks as bats. Injuries skyrocketed. Sorry, but every time I hear some "hockey fan" complain about fighting in hockey, it tells me they really don't understand the sport.


I'm not a hockey fan, as I said. I watch it in the Olympics. I also note that the NCAA doesn't allow fighting, nor do HS leauges, nor do Pee-Wee leauges, and they flourish in hockey country. The NHL, not so much. They're a far weaker professional proposition than they were in 1980. The other pro sports surged ahead, especialy with TV deals, and the NHL languished. Expansions failed, the blue-collar fan base drifted to the NFL. Asserting that a sport "must" have fighting to survive is just . . . looney.




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Post #: 451
RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/1/2010 8:17:02 AM   
moose1999

 

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Wait a minute - fighting (I assume you mean fist-fighting) is legal in the NFL hockey league?
Players won't get punished if they assault somebody?
What about criminal charges?
Or is the hockey rink just some lawless no-man's land where you can get away with murder...?
Don't like somebody, just challenge him to a hockey game and tear out his entrails... Police can't touch you .
Sort of the modern equivalent of a Gentlemen's Duel - fists or skates, sir?

We once had an ugly case in the Danish hockey league, where a player assualted another player and knocked out most of the teeth in his upper mouth.
He was banned from the league for long time, fined a very large amount of money from both the league and his own team, charged with violent assualt by the police and sentenced to jail + another fine, sentenced to pay damages to the victim, murdered and ridiculed by the press and I think eventually kicked from the team.
Here, the national hockey league would have died if they hadn't come down hard on such an act of violence.

Oh, and Brasil is going to go all the way this year.
They've got their defense sorted out, their attack is at european effectiveness finally and they still have enough of their technique, instinct and inventiveness left to outplay most teams.
Dunga has this World Cup by the balls.

< Message edited by briny_norman -- 7/1/2010 8:19:34 AM >


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Post #: 452
RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/1/2010 9:43:01 AM   
LoBaron


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Well I wonder where this discussion leads to?

Everybody knows that football (soccer) is all about love and peace...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6x7WKtQKQU

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Post #: 453
RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/1/2010 12:33:01 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Lo Baron, ah the classic youtube gay referee

Briny, me too I am rather shocked when I see these morons fighting in hockey games No one stops them. Apparently they are not arrested and handcuffed, not fined, not banned from the team / game. What the...? They want to fight? That's what boxing, kickboxing, kung fu, karate were made for. They chose the wrong sport

Eric Cantona kicked the hooligan and his OWN team fined and banned him (6 months)...

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Post #: 454
RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/1/2010 11:22:50 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman

Wait a minute - fighting (I assume you mean fist-fighting) is legal in the NFL hockey league?
Players won't get punished if they assault somebody?
What about criminal charges?
Or is the hockey rink just some lawless no-man's land where you can get away with murder...?
Don't like somebody, just challenge him to a hockey game and tear out his entrails... Police can't touch you .
Sort of the modern equivalent of a Gentlemen's Duel - fists or skates, sir?



No, fighting isn't legal by the rules. It leads to penalty minutes. But it's accepted by the leauge as necessary to keep bringing in the yahoo fans. The teams use "enforcing"--planned assaults on opposing players--as a game tactic, and stock specific brawling players (usually with pooor hockey skils) for this portion of the games.

Re criminal charges, it's an intereasting quesiton. In civil terms pro sports carries an assumption of the risk provision that protects the leauge and the manaagement from most tort exposure. In hockey, football, pro basketball, etc. players engage in behavior that would expose them to civil liability if they did the same thing on the street. My understanding is that every sport requires a LOT of waiver paperwork to be signed by players to wall off most civil liability. That said, if player-on-player violence reaches the level that "shocks the conscience" ( a legal term of art), there might be enough factual support to support a civil suit for battery or another tort.

Criminal behavior is, of course, prosecuted by the state, not individuals. The local prosecutor has broad discretion to bring charges for criminal assault, aggravated assault, etc. (required elements and names vary by state and are statutory) if the behavior would lead to the same charges anywhere else in the jurisdiction. In short, just because the players are engaging in professional contact sports does not mean they are in some sort of protective legal envelope where criminal laws do not apply.

I can only think of one hockey case in the past decade (details are fuzzy in my memory) where criminal charges were filed. It was for a cheap shot at the back of the head of an unsuspecting player, I believe when the action was preparing for a face-off maybe (?) and the struck player had life-threatening injuries and was out for the season. I believe the asaulting player was also released by his team, but again, details not in mind.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/2/2010 5:04:13 AM   
AcePylut


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quote:

It leads to penalty minutes. But it's accepted by the leauge as necessary to keep bringing in the yahoo fans. The teams use "enforcing"--planned assaults on opposing players--as a game tactic, and stock specific brawling players (usually with pooor hockey skils) for this portion of the games.


And this is EXACTLY why fighting should be in the game. So that you don't have planned assaults agianst your star-players by other players that aren't so good, because if the not so good players know that they'll get their arse pounded, they'll avoid making runs at YOUR players.

And if you think the "fighter" types have poor skills, you just go trying to fight another guy while wearing 2 blades of steel on ice. Dinna forget, ice is slippery

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/2/2010 5:24:22 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

And this is EXACTLY why fighting should be in the game. So that you don't have planned assaults agianst your star-players by other players that aren't so good, because if the not so good players know that they'll get their arse pounded, they'll avoid making runs at YOUR players.



If this logic held, you'd have the same behavior in pro baseball, football, and basketball. Fights every night. But you don't. Why? Those owners want to make money. Watching brawls is boring to fans of the game.

The NHL was on the rise in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The NFL hadn't learned how to market the Super Bowl run-up yet, and baseball had over-expanded. The NHL had a network contract--a nationally televised game of the week. Same game, every household, in an era when homes got three channels. A theme song, pre-game show, the works. And they blew it. They lost the contract and the revenue because of brawling, and the NFL took the air time and ran with it.

A recent thumbnail sketch of the NHL:

"3) NHL Ticket Sales Slow - The average NHL team as of late 2008 was worth $219.5 million, up from $200 million in 2007. Operating incomes averaged $4.72 million in 2008, compared to $3.2 million in 2007. Revenue sharing in the NHL is active, with predominantly Canadian teams ponying up the lion’s share. Six teams (Vancouver Canucks, Edmonton Oilers, Calgary Flames, Toronto Maple Leafs, Ottawa Senators and Montreal Canadians) contributed $41 million to lesser teams, most of which are in the southern U.S. This is a typical pattern in the NHL, and, not surprisingly, the Canadian NHL owners are frustrated with the system, and also with an increasing salary cap that forces teams to carry a minimum payroll of $40.7 million. The outlook for the 2009-2010 season is flat at best. Teams are looking for ways to cut their budgets, 50% of which come from ticket revenue, which is expected to slow."

http://www.plunkettresearch.com/AboutUs/News/tabid/413/Default.aspx

Contrast this to the no-brawling, disciplined, NFL:

"1) NFL: The Biggest Money in U.S. Sports – By far, the NFL commands the greatest revenue, plays in the largest and most expensive stadiums and amasses more viewers in the United States than any other sport. This is all the more remarkable in light of the fact that the NFL plays far fewer games per season than does MLB (Major League Baseball) or the NBA (National Basketball Association). NFL owners agreed to increase the salary cap from $116 million per franchise in 2008 to $128 million in 2009 and the minimum NFL team salary in 2009 was $107.7 million. Currently, the NFL is actively seeking new revenue through several ventures. One is NFL On Location, a unit which offers fans the chance to purchase travel packages to major games such as the Super Bowl and the Pro Bowl. Another potential revenue generator is the NFL’s attempt to drum up interest in foreign markets. In China, for example, the league began introducing flag football programs for children in five cities in 2003. In 2007, Chinese state TV channels began airing weekly NFL games. "





< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 7/2/2010 5:35:22 AM >


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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/2/2010 5:19:02 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Holland! YESSS!!

The other side: on the next days suicides will be on the rise in Brazil... NO kidding.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/2/2010 5:25:24 PM   
LoBaron


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YEEEEHAAA! I hope they wont get overconfident by that.

TBH its bad that one of those teams have to be out of the tournament but my heart was with the Oranjes and my money on Brazil.

Well done.

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Post #: 459
RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/2/2010 5:51:12 PM   
moonraker65


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Very surprising to see Brazil lose their cool in the second half. They just didn't perform and Holland capitalised to punish them. Come on you on you Oranges !!

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/2/2010 6:11:43 PM   
Canoerebel


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Wow, the Dutch beat Brazil?!  I know next to nothing about soccer, but I still realize this is "the world turned upside down."  Congrats to Holland.  Does this mean Terminus will imbide a few adult beverages tonight?

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Post #: 461
RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/2/2010 6:49:59 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Wow, the Dutch beat Brazil?!  I know next to nothing about soccer, but I still realize this is "the world turned upside down."  Congrats to Holland.  Does this mean Terminus will imbide a few adult beverages tonight?

Warspite1

I thought he was Danish?

Not quite the world turned on its head Canoerebel; with just a bit of luck the Dutch would have been World Cup winners twice already - in 1974 and 1978. They have produced some decent players and decent teams over the last forty years.

Now a Holland vs Ghana semi-final would be nice please .

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Post #: 462
RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/2/2010 6:54:24 PM   
Canoerebel


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Yes, he is Danish (oops, I sometimes get confused between Dutch and Danish)

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/2/2010 6:57:49 PM   
jonreb31


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yes, he is Danish (oops, I sometimes get confused between Dutch and Danish)


Happens to me all the time

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Post #: 464
RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/2/2010 8:45:01 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yes, he is Danish (oops, I sometimes get confused between Dutch and Danish)




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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 4:48:55 PM   
Terminus


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Well, Brazil's out... Argentina's followed... Germany is doing disturbingly well this WC...

4 - 0! So much for the Messi Magic...

< Message edited by Terminus -- 7/3/2010 4:50:20 PM >


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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 4:59:53 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, Brazil's out... Argentina's followed... Germany is doing disturbingly well this WC...

4 - 0! So much for the Messi Magic...


Never write off the Germans

I feel dirty, but I actually quite like the Germans. They aren't flashy like Brazil or Argentina, but they're a disciplined and organised side who aren't afraid to get forward. (They're what England should be ) I'd say it also proves wrong all those who doubted the ability of European teams to do well in Africa I can't see Paraguay overcoming Spain, so it's probably just Uruguay representing South America in the semis

Germany v Netherlands for the final....

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 5:01:33 PM   
patrickl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, Brazil's out... Argentina's followed... Germany is doing disturbingly well this WC...

4 - 0! So much for the Messi Magic...


Never write off the Germans

I feel dirty, but I actually quite like the Germans. They aren't flashy like Brazil or Argentina, but they're a disciplined and organised side who aren't afraid to get forward. (They're what England should be ) I'd say it also proves wrong all those who doubted the ability of European teams to do well in Africa I can't see Paraguay overcoming Spain, so it's probably just Uruguay representing South America in the semis

Germany v Netherlands for the final....


And the BMW engineered Germans to win WC.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 5:02:23 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Germany has eaten Argentina A L I V E

Terminus, what I said about Rooney (world-class player) can be said about Messi (mega world-class player) NO midfield = the attackers can do little. Mascherano is NOT a brain, an organiser. He is a DESTROYER

Well done, Germany!

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Post #: 469
RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 5:22:41 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: patrickl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, Brazil's out... Argentina's followed... Germany is doing disturbingly well this WC...

4 - 0! So much for the Messi Magic...


Never write off the Germans

I feel dirty, but I actually quite like the Germans. They aren't flashy like Brazil or Argentina, but they're a disciplined and organised side who aren't afraid to get forward. (They're what England should be ) I'd say it also proves wrong all those who doubted the ability of European teams to do well in Africa I can't see Paraguay overcoming Spain, so it's probably just Uruguay representing South America in the semis

Germany v Netherlands for the final....


And the BMW engineered Germans to win WC.


Indeed, that's who I bet on before the WC. Glad I did as well, the odds will be terrible now

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 5:23:10 PM   
Mistmatz

 

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Argentina done, YUMMY!

Who's next.




Attachment (1)

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 5:29:18 PM   
patrickl


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Wonder who Paul the Octupus would pick next.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 5:52:01 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

Argentina done, YUMMY!

Who's next.




Haha
Wie geil!

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Post #: 473
RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 5:53:30 PM   
Kubel


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Mistmatz love to picture.... just need the beer

Germany vs Netherlands S W E E T .... fingers are crossed.

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 6:41:02 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kubel

Mistmatz love to picture.... just need the beer

Germany vs Netherlands S W E E T .... fingers are crossed.

Warspite1

You've just got to admire the Germans....clinical, professional, yet still good to watch. I bet Spain are looking nervously at the semi (assuming they despatch Paraguay as expected).

Germany vs Holland. Yes please - bring it on, only this time can we have an Orange victory please?


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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 7:04:00 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kubel

Mistmatz love to picture.... just need the beer

Germany vs Netherlands S W E E T .... fingers are crossed.

Warspite1

You've just got to admire the Germans....clinical, professional, yet still good to watch. I bet Spain are looking nervously at the semi (assuming they despatch Paraguay as expected).

Germany vs Holland. Yes please - bring it on, only this time can we have an Orange victory please?



I'd say the Germans should be nervous... last Euro 2008 final... They would be facing the BEST midfield in the world (Xavi, Iniesta), not to mention the two slayers: Villa & Torres. Quite good defenders and oh, the best goalkeeper in the world As long as the passing carousel does not work Germans should be ok They can pray...

German defense is their Achilles' Heel... The Argentinians have proven that again.

In theory both Holland and Spain should implode, so...

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 7:13:58 PM   
Mistmatz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
...
German defense is their Achilles' Heel... The Argentinians have proven that again.
...


Yeah right, they prooved that quite impressively. How many goals did they make again?

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Post #: 477
RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 7:15:12 PM   
Historiker


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Doesn't matter.
I see only teams who deserve to win the WC. Both Spain and the Netherlands really deserve their first title and if the Urus should make it...  A people 3,3 Millionen? Great!

I am very pleased with this WC, no matter how it ends, now.


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Post #: 478
RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 7:19:03 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
...
German defense is their Achilles' Heel... The Argentinians have proven that again.
...


Yeah right, they prooved that quite impressively. How many goals did they make again?


Mismatz, it is NOT only about goals

It is about how many times the Argentinians (NOT an impressive side today) and other teams have EASILY REACHED the German goal

A strong football defense does NOT allow such things. And German defense is not the state of art. Already known...

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RE: OT World Cup 2010 South Africa - 7/3/2010 7:51:39 PM   
RHoenig


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I have to agree, especially from about 20 minutes before half-time ´til the second goal, the german defense, or more the whole team, was very shaken.

Still, they pulled together again, while the Argentinians lost their drive again afterwards.
Actually, that is what I like about "our" team this time. No stars, everyone pulling together, helping each other out, in short: A TEAM

And I agree with Historiker. If Germany can´t pull it off (hey, there has to be _some_ patriotism here), the Urus sure deserve to win!

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