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Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/11/2010 2:20:07 PM   
SGHunt


Posts: 873
Joined: 1/20/2010
From: Lancaster, England
Status: offline 		Dear Grogs

I am a new play tester (for which both thanks and surprise, and of course delight). Standard disclaimers apply - we're in Alpha, the texts I refer to are in rough draft, my opinions are my own. My idiocy also. I thought I would share my experiences of learning the game to date, because I know that many of you (us until very recently) are so hungry for news from the front.

OK - just scratching the surface of the game so far, but I have read both of the major AAR's on this thread, most of the other recent threads too, plus the first third of the draft manual, printed the Hot Keys list, and refer to a couple of early draft quick start guides. I have played the game for a few hours. (In terms of context, I have played quite a few quite complex computer, board and table top wargames.)


So what is it like to learn WitE? Initially, it is both simple and utterly daunting!

The simple stuff is moving and fighting, and the map (which is gorgeous to play on)- just get used to the way right and left click works (left for select, right is for action - plus the shift key for planned rather than hasty attacks). Then you are away - waheeey! Move and kill. Beat those Soviet infantry divisions into the ground. Watch them rout. Grind up their armour with overwhelming fire power in combined arms assaults! Check out the number of AFV kills in the combat screen. Only 83 smoking wrecks in this battle? More. Onwards. I am Ozimandias, king of kings, look on my works, ye mighty, and despair...!!!

But, what's that? Extra divisions grow out of the ground, my sweeping envelopment grinds to a halt against a second line, or is channelled away from my my preferred route of attack. OK - use the auto-Recon function. And why am I without petrol? Why are the Russians overwhelming my flanks? Where is my HQ unit? Oh, it has displaced some 70 miles to the rear because it was adjacent to the enemy. I press again, too hard, too fast, but my training tells me speed and initiative is of the essence. How come they are escaping me so easily? Why is the combat value of my elite units suddenly so low. Why is Totenkopf surrounded, 50 miles from the nearest support? OMG, it's Mud this turn! Rescue is impossible. Re-supply by air! But 30 transports are shot down without fighter cover. Oh damn, I forgot the auto Bomb-Airfields function. I am nothing like in the right sort of kill ratio for AFVs... I am a proud fool to imagine the Russians would be easy!

So you can see, I'm enjoying it. (And don't fret, I did manage to dig out the Death's Head Division.)

The corps organisation is really easy to see, but it is much harder to manage and maintain cohesion. Drill into it and suddenly the screen fills with deep mystery and complexity - this is an especial mystery for those of us who like the big picture and are less hot on the micro world. It will be the Holy Grail for those of you like this stuff! Same for Leaders, Attached Units, Subordinate Units, Supply, Forts and Fortresses - Aircraft Units, Air Bases and HQ's are another whole sub-game that I haven't even started to understand, same for the Higher HQs.

And then there's logistics... (railways, rail repair units, rail movement, supply, supply, supply - I am becoming a Quartermaster! Me - the famous and feared von Jaeger! Famous and feared by my micro-chip opponents that is! )

All this stuff, and trying to balance your attention on tactical leadership, operational management, and strategic planning (let alone grand strategic vision!)and, boy, there's lots to learn.

But the game rewards your work - my advice would be to balance reading with playing. Reading the very large manual without playing will not be helpful. Get in a good supply of whisky/beer/gin/wine (delete as applicable) and make arrangements with your family to be gone for some time....

Questions welcome, contributions from other 'learners' most welcome.

All the best
Stuart
(hopelessly addicted already)



_____________________________

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WitE Alpha, Beta Tester

Post #: 1
RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/11/2010 4:38:50 PM   
wurger54

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger
Get in a good supply of whisky/beer/gin/wine (delete as applicable) and make arrangements with your family to be gone for some time....


That was enjoyable. Not sure wine would be applicable to the Ost front... well maybe for Italian divisions.

One of the concerns I have is the game being overly comlex for my aging brain. Sounds like a reasonable balance is being struck. It sounds like you attack the game in a similar manner as I do, a combination of 'read, move, and I'll look that up later... Hmmm I need another drink'.

Looking forward to it.

(in reply to SGHunt)
Post #: 2
RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/11/2010 5:08:49 PM   
SGHunt


Posts: 873
Joined: 1/20/2010
From: Lancaster, England
Status: offline 		The drink is especially important in the cold weather.

The 'clever ones' are looking at staged tutorial missions, with guides, examples, strategy and tactics tips etc. to help the merely mortal 

Glad you enjoyed
S

(in reply to wurger54)
Post #: 3
RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/11/2010 5:09:24 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		One of the concerns I have is the game being overly comlex for my aging brain

the biggest issue may be the player may feel overwhelmed when they look at it, start it up, really in fact, the game is very easy to get into, and to do what needs to be done, but getting over the shock of seeing all of those Divs and HQ's and what not, is going to be the HARD part


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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/11/2010 5:47:14 PM   
critter


Posts: 139
Joined: 3/26/2004
Status: offline 		I think the thing I'm most confussed about is having to use Admin points to activate your units.
I can see not moving or attacking because you're out of supply or disorganized. but to not be able to move/attack because your not activated? Seems strange to a long time used to move them all in your turn type war gamer.

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Post #: 5
RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/11/2010 5:56:49 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		well, you may not be used to the idea of what reactivate is meaning in the game, those units are in Static mode, and so, have had all of there trucks pulled away from them, for use elsewheres

the Admin cost to reactivate is getting the trucks and supplies back up, so the unit can get back into action

(there are never enough trucks to go around)


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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/12/2010 10:02:13 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		As the next youngest tester (4 months and counting) I can echo a lot of what Stuart has said, I spent the first 3 days going "OMG, OMG" just looking up at the cliff face of the learning curve that is WITE, as I read through the manual. I have to honest and say I ignored the tutorial, thinking I would be fine taking on the 1941 campaign. I started from the baseline of knowing where the front line was after 4 days, and what the soviet air losses were, so lets see if I can achieve the historical results. So I re-did the first turn until I could get Riga, Minsk, a pocket around Demyansk and Lvov and 4500 SU aircraft destroyed. The vagaries of the gazzilion dice rolls that are used, means that Riga will fall on the first turn about 80% of the time, and Minsk is about 50%.

I then looked at the next phase line of Smolensk and Kiev, and while trying to achieve those by the historical deadline, I started to see the importance of maintaining C&C and logistics. Once at Smolensk,you are faced with the Historical "Moscow or South" decision. For my early tests I went with the historical option - i.e. Rostov by December. It is this phase you learn that a wrong turn for your rail repair units will cause a supply black hole that no amount of JU52 flying night and day can fill.

By the time I got to December I was pretty happy that I had managed to achieve the Historical front line, and knew how to handle my army pretty well. Then the Blizzard starts.......

12 turns of white hell later and my army is wrecked and I am miles behind the historical front line. This was my biggest lesson in learning the game, and I really regretted not playing a scenario like Typhoon that includes 4 turns of blizzard, so I could learn how to survive it. So my recommendation to everyone is: DO NOT PLAY THE 1941 CAMPAIGN UNTIL YOU ARE SURE YOU CAN SURVIVE THE FIRST WINTER. Or you will waste a lot of time and have to start all over again.

For my sins, I have ended up testing the First Winter rules so I have learned how to survive, and it can be done on normal settings - I haven't cracked challenging yet - and you definitely don't want to see the AAR of my latest test!!! Let's just say the current First Winter rules need some adjustment.



< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 7/12/2010 10:46:27 AM >

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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/12/2010 11:26:34 AM   
steveh11Matrix


Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Roughly what sort of time are we talking per turn here? As a rule of thumb?

My only real criticism of WitP:AE is the sheer time taken to play a single turn. (Aside: I really miss the computer-controlled zone options in that game.) It looks like WitE will have a shorter per-turn playing time, but I could use a little reassurance?

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Post #: 8
RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/12/2010 11:36:17 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		It really depends on how much of a micro-manager you are. I am a very anal micro-manager, so the early turns take me 3-5 hours; the more "Blood and Thunder" testers probably take 2-3 hours for the early turns. Snow turns take me 2-3 hours, Blizzard turns 1-2hours and Mud 1 hour. When I had a week off work, I got through 53 turns (1 Year) in a week.



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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/12/2010 12:10:25 PM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline 		Well - and I believe it will of a huge benefit with this game - but the standard for 21st Century tutorials has recently been set by Panther's Battles From the Bulge.

I hope 2by3 and Matrix can follow this route with GGWitE.

We're talking long, specific, interactive video tutorials that show what needs to happen and why with the UI. The gamer gets to follow along on screen by listening, watching and pausing his action in-game.

The only criticism of BFtB with these tutorials from my perspective, was that there weren't enough!

Time has changed for forcing players to read huge manuals - show us how it's done - let us do it with you - and get the kinesthetics of training going

My .02.

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 10
RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/12/2010 12:44:45 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline
quote:

kinesthetics


Sorry, I had to go and look that one up. All I can say is that tutorials are quite high on the test agenda at the moment, and Stuart and some of the other new testers are on the case for this at the moment. As Stuart said in his post the basics of left/right/shift click for the different actions are pretty straight forward, it is the nuances of the game that can only be learned from experience.

The reason I enjoy the game as much as I do is that you have to think about solving problems the same way I imagine the real generals did - "how do I scrape together the reserves that are needed to capture my objective", "How do I get the supplies to the troops who I have assigned to capture the objective", "what are next month's objectives?, What forces will I have to achieve those objectives? - how do I get them where they need to be?" etc. etc. I am not sure Video tutorials could be produced to cover this.

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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/12/2010 1:48:20 PM   
SGHunt


Posts: 873
Joined: 1/20/2010
From: Lancaster, England
Status: offline 		Though some short examples would be more than possible (eg how can I launch a combined arms assault on a defended city?)   Good ref to the BftB vids, Adam.

S

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Post #: 12
RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/12/2010 3:42:23 PM   
GBS

 

Posts: 903
Joined: 7/3/2002
From: Southeastern USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Well - and I believe it will of a huge benefit with this game - but the standard for 21st Century tutorials has recently been set by Panther's Battles From the Bulge.

I hope 2by3 and Matrix can follow this route with GGWitE.

We're talking long, specific, interactive video tutorials that show what needs to happen and why with the UI. The gamer gets to follow along on screen by listening, watching and pausing his action in-game.

The only criticism of BFtB with these tutorials from my perspective, was that there weren't enough!

Time has changed for forcing players to read huge manuals - show us how it's done - let us do it with you - and get the kinesthetics of training going

My .02.


OMG!! Sounds like it takes longer than WIP:AE. I might have to play and save three or more times to get through a turn and for those like me with AAD, we might lose interest. I sure hope not. 3-4 hours? Wow....



< Message edited by GBS -- 7/12/2010 3:44:50 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/12/2010 11:32:04 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Von J,

Good luck in your testing...your enthusiasm is infectious....hope you do a beginners AAR...rather than one done by a master of the game...I want to see how a newbie gets on with all the mistakes that entails...

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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/13/2010 2:58:13 AM   
Sabre21


Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
Status: offline 		Very well done Stuart, makes me go want to play the game



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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/13/2010 5:36:39 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		WitP AE is a plot with execution phase game, and being a game with waypoints and lots of automatic levers, a turn can be quite fast to plot but long to resolve. It fit the air/sea/land battles it was simulating. War in the East is a land combat game with an IGOUGO system where you move all your units and move and attack in the same turn (similar to Panzer General if you remember that one). If you are playing a campaign game covering the entire front, a turn can take a long time, but if you're attacking, you're having fun as you are constantly launching attacks during your turn and seeing results. If you're not ready for the full campaign frontage, you can always play a smaller scenario in which case the time per turn can be much smaller. We have different sizes of scenarios. Here's the Typhoon set up (zoomed out).




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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/13/2010 5:38:48 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Here's Road to Leningrad.




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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/13/2010 5:40:51 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		and here's the Velikie Luki Tutorial scenario.




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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/13/2010 6:23:11 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		So how does one go about mitigating the blizzard?

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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/13/2010 10:09:43 AM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

So how does one go about mitigating the blizzard?


Decimate the Soviets prior to the blizzard, then hunker down and hope for the best.

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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/13/2010 11:02:43 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Ummm... I hope my forthcoming AAR will show there is more to it than that.



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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/13/2010 12:47:20 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Destroy as much of the Red Army before the fall rains, shorten the lines, dig in, and create reserves. Attacking during the fall and creating weak flanks will spell disaster, it will be a rough 3 months as is...

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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/13/2010 1:52:27 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I'm just thinking back to Elmo's playtest where he was dug in behind the Dnepr river in the south and still getting slapped around. That doesn't seem quite right to me.

The 1941-2 winter was historically brutal in large part because the entire German logistical system collapsed, and a more conservative German advance wouldn't have been so vulnerable to it. I'm wondering if the game treats blizzard in too binary a fashion and if it should have more finely tuned effects. So the closer you are to the original border (and I suppose the Baltic ports, including Leningrad if captured) the less extreme the penalties should be.  


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RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/13/2010 2:39:18 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		We are still tweaking the winter of 41...

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Post #: 24
RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/13/2010 2:44:04 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		@FlaviusX

I have just finished a test of the first winter rules on Challenging settings, which Lee used in AAR and it has raised a whole raft of issues that Joel and Gary want to address. On normal settings I am happy that the game is producing more historical results. PBEM games are played on normal settings. If you stick with the new AAR I have started to post you should see one way to survive the Winter on normal settings.



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Post #: 25
RE: Learning Curve for Noobs - 7/13/2010 2:50:40 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Awright, I'll check that out. It's probably not a good idea to read too much into blizzard effects when the game's dial is cranked up to 11 anyways.

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Post #: 26
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