TheElf
Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EUBanana
And I don't agree with houserules on max altitude.
It is simplistic. All a houserule like that does is mean that everybody's maneuver rating that matters is the maneuver rating at 30K feet. This means a lot of aircraft get short changed.
You might as well argue you can't go higher than 6k feet. 
The altitude thing ruins the air model completely. All that tender loving care inputting maneuver ratings at different altitudes is utterly wasted, none of it is relevant. House rules don't change that. What could be a very complex sub game has ended up being borked by the God Stat.
Surely it would be fairly easy to fix? Just a different weighting to dive advantages, might even be one line of code depending on how it all works. The dive massacre is in my mind the absolute #1 issue with this game, fix that and it'd be so much better.
Interestingly a JFB discovered the dive massacre early on while playing with his Zeroes - in his shortsightedness he concluded that P40s were too good when above Zeroes IIRC, when the true conclusion is that it wasn't about P40 vs Zero at all, it was about how anything flying above anything else wins.
That is an entirely accurate and persuasive conclusion EUBanana. In WWII if you had a 2-3k' altitude advantage you held the initiative. Any aircraft could attain ~400kts or greater in a dive (less so the early IJ models), and that energy was THE advantage. If you were beset upon by an adversary with Energy you had two options:
1. Run. nose-low slicing max performance turn to place the bandits at your six o clock and get to Max Q as quick as you can, and hope the bandits can't catch you.
2. Climb into them with an energy sustaining attitude (not best climb) so as to retain some maneuvering Airspeed and be prepared to be defensive. Max perform your aircraft in order to defeat enemy WEZs (Weapon engagement Zones), and hope to force a BFM (Basic Fighter Maneuvering) error and then capitalize to gain offensive position.
There are a scant few other options. Being at an energy deficit is bad news in the end game. In the real world leaders with sharp eyes or Radar assist might get SA (situational awareness) to an enemy with an advantage and orient his flight in such a way as to minimize or even reverse that initial disadvantage BEFORE the end game. When I say end game I mean the point where all the jockeying for position ends and combat is joined.
As a Side note, besides my day job I fly a lot of IL-2 Sturmovik on a full realism server with many mods that aim to correct alot of Oleg's (the designer) bias or outright mis-modelling. Here are some things I've noted applying the fundamentals I have from my day job.
1. A Hellcat or corsair working in pairs can neutralize a single Zeke, and even defeat him, but the 2 US pilots MUST be talking together and fly their best defensive fight and work the higher bandit down over time.
2. A single Hellcat or Corsair is usually deadmeat in the above situation unless he gets his nose down and dives out, but if he delays this move a Zeke can close and stay with the Heavier US plane until it builds momentum.
3. A Tony can dive with a P-38, and out turn him at any speed. The P-38 Must keep his speed up, make one pass and then extend in an energy sustaining shallow climb, NEVER turn with a Tony once LOS (line of sight rate) picks up, and deflection is more than 60 deg off the tail, you'll only bleed energy and sacrifice advantage.
4. A P-38 below a Tony is at a supreme disadvantage, not being able to out turn him, the only option is to run, extend and then hope to return to the fight with enough separation to force a head on attack. Or run home.
5. A P-40 with more than 3k' of altitude over a Zeke is in a supreme position. He can choose his point of attack and sustain his energy over several passes, and retains a speed advantage such that the Zeke must neutralize him in order to escape. A smart P-40 pilot once neutralized will use his Max Q, superior diving speed to leave the Zeke in it's tracks. He better also hope that the Zeke doesn't have a friend nearby gaining position on him while the first Zeke baits him.
These combats above a examples of small affairs, not large air battles, but once a large Melee begins that is essentially what you have. A wild mix of many small, momentary separate combats. One might start the combat with an energy advantage, kill his opponent quickly, then find himself under the guns of a second enemy that discovered him quite luckily preoccupied with his first kill.
A final word on the altitude bands. They work. The point of them is to stratify Air combat into realistic zones that mirror the performance envelopes of all Aircraft, and allow some of the more complex interactions of classic matchups to occur. It is a fleshing out of the original system. It isn't the ONLY thing that is at work. There are many other rules that most of you end-users are not aware of. Nor need you be. But Aircraft design, technological advances, and industrial capability (read metallurgy), is what decided many of the air battles in WWII. If you find that your aircraft are at a disadvantage at 25k' because it is underpowered, has no supercharger and cannot outrun it's newest opponent, and it's primary attribute of Maneuverability is nulled then that is historical. This game, and we designers, strive to be as historically accurate as we can be. I feel we achieved that goal.
< Message edited by TheElf -- 7/11/2010 6:21:20 PM >
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RE: Cancelling the Tony Program - 
) saying itīs all so well and fine just to have michaelm (thanks to him) find out it definetely wasnīt working as designed... so much about your dev supported answers that just suited at that time... oh well, who states in the same sentense that he hasnīt played the game for an eternity... well thatīs of course telling the truth then... 
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