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RE: A new day will dawn - 7/7/2010 5:41:02 PM

jcprom

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I guess nearly all of us on this forum would prefer Matrix to issue MWIF1 FIRST without an AI, and LATER with an AI. That would reduce the long wait and would make sense (the AI being such a huge task).

Alas, common sense doesn't always rule in the real world. For crucial business/marketing reasons, Matrix MUST release MWIF1 with the AI. Otherwise, they feel they won't be able to finance the project, i.e. :
-recover their initial investment, including the amount owed to Steve,
-turn a big enough profit to keep something for themselves and be able to start working on MWIF2 without a loan.

I just hope that IF MWIF1 is a great success, Matrix will initiate work on MWIF2 without any delay. Anything less would be disappointing.

Steve, please correct me if I got it wrong.

Jerome

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 91

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/8/2010 9:04:20 AM

Joseignacio

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For me, that's not common sense. A game without an AI can hardly be called a game (at least a tactic or strategy game9 nowadays, it�s more a support system for board gamers.

MWIF without AI would not add too much to Vassal, I would not buy it, that's for sure.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 7/8/2010 9:06:18 AM >

(in reply to jcprom)

Post #: 92

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/8/2010 11:38:49 AM

Skanvak

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Jose, may be we just want a support, for us, wargamer.

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Skanvak

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Post #: 93

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/8/2010 12:16:10 PM

BallyJ

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I would buy it

(in reply to jcprom)

Post #: 94

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/8/2010 1:11:58 PM

Joseignacio

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I am a wargamer, and I have played wif for like 8 years more or less. But for that support there are other systems, like Vassal.

The edge in this game is that it can offer "solo gaming", the rest is pure mostly unnecessary (because you can find it somewhere else) stuff.

(in reply to Skanvak)

Post #: 95

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/8/2010 1:16:42 PM

Terminus

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"Most" doesn't mean "all", bub...

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Post #: 96

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/8/2010 1:19:20 PM

Joseignacio

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Yes, and do the features that would come in a MWIF without AI and that you cannot have in board WIF + Vassal (and similar engines) justify this project and be enough to be sold at the normal price of a videogame?

NO and NO.

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 97

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/8/2010 1:35:28 PM

jcprom

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Jos�,

You misread my post. We basically agree.

Jerome

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 98

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/8/2010 1:49:37 PM

Joseignacio

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Yes, I think I may have, although your paragraph as a whole sounded to me like you thought that Matrix needed to realease MWIF with AI in despite of common sense...

quote:

Alas, common sense doesn't always rule in the real world. For crucial business/marketing reasons, Matrix MUST release MWIF1 with the AI.

Anyway, if there is a MWIF1 with AI there should be no need to make a MWIF2 anytime soon. I hate sagas like Europa Universalis 1-2-3 and Hearts of Iron 1-2-3 where you need to pay three times and wait (once you are supposed to have bought a game that works as designed) a number of years after the program is "Gold" to have what you should have had in the moment of the buy.

(in reply to jcprom)

Post #: 99

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/8/2010 2:37:51 PM

micheljq

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

For me, that's not common sense. A game without an AI can hardly be called a game (at least a tactic or strategy game9 nowadays, it�s more a support system for board gamers.

MWIF without AI would not add too much to Vassal, I would not buy it, that's for sure.

I disagree with this. MWiF without AI would bring a lot over Vassal. It would administer the sequence of play, dice rolls, calculate the odds for me, impede me from doing illegal moves by mistake, help me administer the force pools and force pools additions, check the supply for me, facilitate administration of convoys, facilitate the administration of the moves I can make when doing a naval, air, or land action. I am sure I forget a lot of other things MWiF can do over Vassal.

One other very important thing, MWiF, would cut a lot of arguying over the rules.

_____________________________

Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 100

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/8/2010 6:33:18 PM

Froonp

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What would be cool while waiting for MWiF, would be Vassal with MWiF maps.

(in reply to micheljq)

Post #: 101

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 4:58:51 AM

CrusssDaddy

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quote:

I disagree with this. MWiF without AI would bring a lot over Vassal. It would administer the sequence of play, dice rolls, calculate the odds for me, impede me from doing illegal moves by mistake, help me administer the force pools and force pools additions, check the supply for me, facilitate administration of convoys, facilitate the administration of the moves I can make when doing a naval, air, or land action. I am sure I forget a lot of other things MWiF can do over Vassal.

One other very important thing, MWiF, would cut a lot of arguying over the rules.

I've got good news for you! This product already exists - it's called CWIF. If you don't already have it, you can get it at the ADG website, and at a bargain price.

Finally, you've come around to agree with me.

(in reply to micheljq)

Post #: 102

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 7:37:32 AM

Skanvak

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Cruss, I dont know why, but I think that Cwif is not as good as Mwif without AI. I hqve playtested Cwif and I really think it is not a finished product compared to a Mwif without AI. Second, to have created the first cyberbox for WiF I know that Cwif added a lot and Mwif more even and especially without AI.

And last : Europe at war is sold without AI at a high price.

The very fact that some of us are ready to buy the game without AI should be enough to understand that this is not absurd as long as the AI is schedule at some latter time for the general public.

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Skanvak

(in reply to CrusssDaddy)

Post #: 103

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 8:42:54 AM

Joseignacio

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

quote:

I disagree with this. MWiF without AI would bring a lot over Vassal. It would administer the sequence of play, dice rolls, calculate the odds for me, impede me from doing illegal moves by mistake, help me administer the force pools and force pools additions, check the supply for me, facilitate administration of convoys, facilitate the administration of the moves I can make when doing a naval, air, or land action. I am sure I forget a lot of other things MWiF can do over Vassal.

One other very important thing, MWiF, would cut a lot of arguying over the rules.

I've got good news for you! This product already exists - it's called CWIF. If you don't already have it, you can get it at the ADG website, and at a bargain price.

Finally, you've come around to agree with me.

Hahaha, that was cool. I didn't think I could agree with you anytime.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 7/9/2010 8:52:23 AM >

(in reply to CrusssDaddy)

Post #: 104

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 8:52:55 AM

Joseignacio

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Cruss, I dont know why, but I think that Cwif is not as good as Mwif without AI. I hqve playtested Cwif and I really think it is not a finished product compared to a Mwif without AI. Second, to have created the first cyberbox for WiF I know that Cwif added a lot and Mwif more even and especially without AI.

And last : Europe at war is sold without AI at a high price.

The very fact that some of us are ready to buy the game without AI should be enough to understand that this is not absurd as long as the AI is schedule at some latter time for the general public.

Skanvak, in all games be them computer games or board games there are fans. Fans buy whatever merchandise for example, even T-shirts or mugs with the emblem of their favourite game, maps extra size, and whatever you want to sell, at any price.

The problem is which is the number. If the number of this fan people is high enough, then a game that has no AI could be sold, but usually only to those who:

- Are WIF wargamers, since those who are not wil not buy a game with no AI (in general).

and

- are WIf wargamers who appreciate the support a computer game (or Vassal) can give (My friends don't).

and

- are not satisfied with Wassal or CWIF

Summarizing: only the part of hard-core Wif players who like computer support, and are not satisfied with CWIF or Vassal but don't need a full computer game.

How many can they be? Don't know but I bet a puny minority, no matter that in a such a specialized forum as this they can eventually be a majority.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 7/9/2010 9:08:22 AM >

(in reply to Skanvak)

Post #: 105

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 10:35:51 AM

Skanvak

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1/ Do we start a poll?

2/ Do we ask the company did just what you consider impossible if it works commercially (i remind that they never intend to releqse an AI)? As this is a fact that such an AI less wargame as been released. So if we want to add value to the debate we need fact.

Betting on a poll result is not an argument. I could as well bet we are enough.

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Skanvak

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 106

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 10:58:54 AM

undercovergeek

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what does one need to post a poll - id be interested in the results

BUT....... is it a fruitless exercise if 500 people say yes release it with no AI..... is it going to happen? will Steve release it? will Matrix? if the answer is no we're waiting for the AI regardless then there is no point.

Sometime ago there was a poll by steve about what type of game you would play, solo/PBEM etc etc and i can only assume this poll was the fruit of a discussion that started with 'HOW LONG did you just say it would take to write the AI, HOLY S***, you better ask the users how they will play, because if everyone says PBEM we will not bother writing one'

i was a buyer of no AI, and i understood the frustration of all of those who dont want one whilst we wait for those who do want one - and to a certain degree I understand, but there must be people gradually walking away from this product who never did want an AI and now cant be bothered whether it gets one or not, because frankly the length of time waiting for one is so far over the horizon

(in reply to Skanvak)

Post #: 107

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 12:51:36 PM

jcprom

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The game without AI would be sold to a few hundred people. It would generate too little revenue.

Only a release with AI could finance MWIF.

A pre-release without AI would hurt financially, because the later release with AI would no longer be new, and the product would carry the image of the pre-release.

A pre-release would have helped...
-making the program rock-solid,
-testing and balancing the new items (divisions and the new scale...).
("common sense", except from a business point of view)

Anyway, the discussion is moot. The only way to finance MWIF1 is to issue the game with the AI. We're wasting our time.

(in reply to undercovergeek)

Post #: 108

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 12:58:56 PM

fallgelb

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My point vs. an AI is that i never saw an AI that is really (without cheating) competetive. And there are games with not so bad performances (in my eyes Total war, CIV III and IV). For example Panzer General I like to play, but the only way to make a "Advanced Game Level" was to give the AI "production Boni". And the AI in games like Hearts of Iron has no "Intelligence" from my point of view.

And so I have to wait for something, I do not believe in. But of course if I have to, I will and I will buy the product in a year or two without AI or in three to five years with an AI (my own estimates).

< Message edited by fallgelb -- 7/9/2010 1:10:25 PM >

(in reply to undercovergeek)

Post #: 109

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 1:33:59 PM

micheljq

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

1/ Do we start a poll?

2/ Do we ask the company did just what you consider impossible if it works commercially (i remind that they never intend to releqse an AI)? As this is a fact that such an AI less wargame as been released. So if we want to add value to the debate we need fact.

Betting on a poll result is not an argument. I could as well bet we are enough.

Steve did a poll already and after seeing the poll's results, it was decided that MWiF would be released with an AI. If I can find the thread I will make a link, i think it was in 2009.

< Message edited by micheljq -- 7/9/2010 1:34:12 PM >

_____________________________

Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to Skanvak)

Post #: 110

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 2:30:06 PM

Joseignacio

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I saw the poll, and took part, but I think Steve decided to have an AI in spite of the results.

I don't remember the final results but I think there was around a 50% on each side although at the beginning the non-Ai were many more.

However, I think Steve and Matrix determined that it will have an AI and I believe it was because they realised how biased was to make market research in a WiF fan website, whereas the game will be released in an absolutely different market.

(in reply to micheljq)

Post #: 111

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 3:11:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

I saw the poll, and took part, but I think Steve decided to have an AI in spite of the results.

I don't remember the final results but I think there was around a 50% on each side although at the beginning the non-Ai were many more.

However, I think Steve and Matrix determined that it will have an AI and I believe it was because they realised how biased was to make market research in a WiF fan website, whereas the game will be released in an absolutely different market.

Jose I remember that poll quite differently than you do but could be wrong, if I am not mistaken Steve was floored by that poll which I believe it was up in the 60% bracket in favor of an AI, I am not taking sides just refreshing your mind on the poll. Just found the poll it was june 2nd 2009 [Simple survey] by Steve.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 7/9/2010 3:52:13 PM >

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 112

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 3:21:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

quote:

I disagree with this. MWiF without AI would bring a lot over Vassal. It would administer the sequence of play, dice rolls, calculate the odds for me, impede me from doing illegal moves by mistake, help me administer the force pools and force pools additions, check the supply for me, facilitate administration of convoys, facilitate the administration of the moves I can make when doing a naval, air, or land action. I am sure I forget a lot of other things MWiF can do over Vassal.

One other very important thing, MWiF, would cut a lot of arguying over the rules.

I've got good news for you! This product already exists - it's called CWIF. If you don't already have it, you can get it at the ADG website, and at a bargain price.

Finally, you've come around to agree with me.

I bought the game several weeks ago and it has helped me as a noob to learn movement, some rules, different units, what odds to attack and what odds you should not try unless your relying on luck, as a instructional tool I find it very well done, but as a game playing it solo I am already bored to death with it and have not played it in about a week, now maybe this is not a game for me, maybe, wont know until I see the finished MWIF from Steve, by the way it only cost 15 US$ and they ADG, made it very easy to download and they also sent me rule books that were very well done.

Bo

(in reply to CrusssDaddy)

Post #: 113

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 7:44:59 PM

Joseignacio

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

I saw the poll, and took part, but I think Steve decided to have an AI in spite of the results.

I don't remember the final results but I think there was around a 50% on each side although at the beginning the non-Ai were many more.

However, I think Steve and Matrix determined that it will have an AI and I believe it was because they realised how biased was to make market research in a WiF fan website, whereas the game will be released in an absolutely different market.

Jose I remember that poll quite differently than you do but could be wrong, if I am not mistaken Steve was floored by that poll which I believe it was up in the 60% bracket in favor of an AI, I am not taking sides just refreshing your mind on the poll. Just found the poll it was june 2nd 2009 [Simple survey] by Steve.

Bo

Well, I would say we remember pretty the same facts and we differ in the conclussions. I said about 50% , can be 60%, why not. But it's not "winning the poll" what would decide Steven, I believe. I think he said something about speaking it with the rest of the Matrix team and take a decission.

I think that through the survey he saw also that the initial overwhelming percentage of people who would admit no AI was descending really fast. This showed that the group of "wif freakies" (me included) were loyal but a tiny minority. When the not so frequent posters came, the poll changed 180�.

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 114

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 7:57:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

I saw the poll, and took part, but I think Steve decided to have an AI in spite of the results.

I don't remember the final results but I think there was around a 50% on each side although at the beginning the non-Ai were many more.

However, I think Steve and Matrix determined that it will have an AI and I believe it was because they realised how biased was to make market research in a WiF fan website, whereas the game will be released in an absolutely different market.

Jose I remember that poll quite differently than you do but could be wrong, if I am not mistaken Steve was floored by that poll which I believe it was up in the 60% bracket in favor of an AI, I am not taking sides just refreshing your mind on the poll. Just found the poll it was june 2nd 2009 [Simple survey] by Steve.

Bo

Well, I would say we remember pretty the same facts and we differ in the conclussions. I said about 50% , can be 60%, why not. But it's not "winning the poll" what would decide Steven, I believe. I think he said something about speaking it with the rest of the Matrix team and take a decission.

I think that through the survey he saw also that the initial overwhelming percentage of people who would admit no AI was descending really fast. This showed that the group of "wif freakies" (me included) were loyal but a tiny minority. When the not so frequent posters came, the poll changed 180�.

Good enough Jose, 60%, 50% no big deal but where I Felt the difference was
the other non AI comments were broken up into PBEM, hot seat, etc which in the long run I guess it is still 50/50 so your right. When you say not so frequent posters are you referring to Wif board game players who just happen onto this forum? From the posts I have read it seems to me outside of myself and a very few others most posters are WIF board game people.

Bo

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 115

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/9/2010 9:59:29 PM

brian brian

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yawn

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 116

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/10/2010 2:45:59 AM

Skanvak

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If you refer to the pool bring from the archive by Steve I read it differently :
_ If there is an AI, it will be used predominantly by a majority of people
_ There is a suitable demand for an AI
But as non AI type of play are separated and that people ready to buy without AI might answer a high level of AI play the pool is not pertinent on this question.

But I think it is another poll as result dont seem consistent.

I remind that I am not against an AI, I just want to have a pre-release without AI (but with a map true to geography grmfmrmomnppp) because the waiting is just too long (and at some point th e program will not run on new machine). I can too accept AI in 1st releqse if more people are put on the project.

< Message edited by Skanvak -- 7/12/2010 10:02:47 AM >

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Post #: 117

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/12/2010 9:49:29 AM

Joseignacio

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

...

Good enough Jose, 60%, 50% no big deal but where I Felt the difference was
the other non AI comments were broken up into PBEM, hot seat, etc which in the long run I guess it is still 50/50 so your right. When you say not so frequent posters are you referring to Wif board game players who just happen onto this forum? From the posts I have read it seems to me outside of myself and a very few others most posters are WIF board game people.

Bo

Well, what I mean is that there is a good percentage of the forum members who are hardcore board WIF gamers, which is logical, because we (WIF gamers) are the most interested in MWIF, much more than you people who don't know the board game. I mean : which is the percentage of computer gamers who follow this forum and which the percentage of wiffers?

So, at the beginning of the survey I was astonished that the percentage of people (including me) who would play (only?) with AI was so low.

I think this was so because the most frequent visitors of the forum were us, the hardcore wif gamers. As soon as the rest of the people, who mostly only visit us from time to time (or from semester to semester) if I remember all this well, the poll started to change and the result was what we mentione.

That's why I say it's biased. If the poll had been posted in Matrix forums Main Page, proba bly the results would have been 10 to 1 in favour of AI or more.

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 118

RE: A new day will dawn - 7/12/2010 3:58:06 PM

Patience

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Taking the numbers from the survey thread and including results from 0-9 % here are the results. Obviously PBEM, NetPlay and AI are most important but with the AI being 3-4 times more important than PBEM or NetPlay individually.